Are “shaming tactics” finally losing their power?
Are “shaming tactics” finally losing their power?
Post by Zoneboss on Jan 14, 2006, 2:16am
Are “shaming tactics” about marriage finally losing their power in general society?
It’s just my impression, but I’ve noted that guys seem a lot less cowed by the old “If you aren’t married its because you are a fag/loser/beta” etc.
Lot more guys seem confident in expressing their desires to not marry or not have kids.
Lot less nervous laughter, self-deprecation, “I know its geeky but…” when they say they’d rather devote themselves to hobbies or save money than pursue marriage.
Is this really a quantum shift going on? Or is it just that I spend too much time on sites like this?
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Re: Are “shaming tactics” finally losing their pow
Post by Snakey on Jan 14, 2006, 2:31am
Well, the problem regarding marriage is an actual problem, rather than the invented ones feminists come up with to justify their existence. You can try shaming men to believe the opposite of something undeniably true if you want, but it’s an emotional attack, and that’s temporary. The truth of the matter is still there, and even men of very opposing views on this board and elsewhere can see it. If you shame them for that, you will be recognized as part of the problem, also desensitizing them to your tactics.
It saves you a lot of trouble and effort if truth and a just cause is on your side - there’s a consistent platform from which all else grows with credibility. Much more reliable than the rejoinder we frequently hear, which is the same shaming attack in one of a few limited varities, basically the message being: ‘YOU are the problem, shut yer yap.’
This is where the net comes in, and this is why there’s now attempts to police the net being snuck into VAWA: rational men congregate and are aware now that something’s wrong, and that they individually are not the problem.
On a side note, I’d predict that a successful attempt to shut down men’s rights activity online would force it into the streets and more visibly into the mainstream reality. It would probably speed things up, as this seems to be something inevitable out of the social conditions we have, and can’t really be stopped. It can be influenced of course, which I suppose many feminists realize, hence the emergence of ‘KG feminists’ (kinder, gentler) and lip-service merchants like Wendy McElroy.
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Re: Are “shaming tactics” finally losing their pow
Post by rule62 on Jan 14, 2006, 3:09am
An interesting question. I would answer “yes”. As Snakey has said, the simple fact is rational human beings (men) respond to incentives. The “incentive” to marry is now so severe and stacked against men that there MUST be a trend away from marriage as it is currently designed in American society (and the UK, Aussie, NZ, etc).
Men being rational will be human. Like tax incentives, new car purchase rebates, etc people do respond. It really is economics 101. I recommend reading a book by an economist “Freakenomics” where he studies this at length. It is written for a person with no education or training in economics, but even if you have studied the dismal science as it is known you will still find it very interesting and very enlightening.
It will only get worse, and the normal cycle the reaction will be government control of men. Try to “fix” the problem with brute rule of law, which NEVER works. So, it is now basically illegal for us to write to foreign women over the internet, or will be in 60 days. What will happen? These things are hard to predict, but my personal reaction is ok I’ll just fly to Ukraine, St Petersburg Russia or wherever. If I met some women, great, if not I had a cool vacation. Chances are I will meet a slew of women, and will marry one eventually.
My point is that the attempt to regulate the marriage market will change men’s behavior even more, and not in the way intended.
So, the trend of marrying actual women as opposed to American monsters is now going to increase!!! The opposite effect the law was intended to “Fix”. This happens all the time when you try to regulate a market. This prediction may not be what happens, but what I guarantee is it will not work out the way the feminists think it will. That somehow we will be driven back to them and their little hell on earth they have created.
Ah America, Land of the Free! Yeah right.
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Re: Are “shaming tactics” finally losing their pow
Post by jp on Jan 14, 2006, 6:04am
Jan 14, 2006, 3:09am, rule62 wrote:
It will only get worse, and the normal cycle the reaction will be government control of men. Try to “fix” the problem with brute rule of law, which NEVER works. So, it is now basically illegal for us to write to foreign women over the internet, or will be in 60 days. What will happen? These things are hard to predict, but my personal reaction is ok I’ll just fly to Ukraine, St Petersburg Russia or wherever. If I met some women, great, if not I had a cool vacation. Chances are I will meet a slew of women, and will marry one eventually.My point is that the attempt to regulate the marriage market will change men’s behavior even more, and not in the way intended.
So, the trend of marrying actual women as opposed to American monsters is no going to increase!!! The opposite effect the law was intended to “Fix”. This happens all the time when you try to regulate a market.
Right on the money rule62.
I think the VAWA’s IMBRA will backfire and actually legitimize AM and FW marriage. This law is unfair and a pain, but it will:
- get rid of many “tire-kickers”
- ensure the women are dealing with men who are serious
- just change the method of operation. Any man who is realistic knows if he marries a FW he will probably travel there many times in his lifetime, so now he just has to go there first.
- mean the marriage agencies will ultimately offer a much more personalized service to the men (probably with better results)
- apply a positive selection filter for “most likely to work” marriages
- best of all, leave all the really bad-boys for the AWs
When a woman from Poland I know arrived in the west, one of her first comments was “how come all the smart men have ugly wives?”. Not for much longer!
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Re: Are “shaming tactics” finally losing their pow
Post by rule62 on Jan 14, 2006, 3:28pm
This board is getting mentioned in some interesting places. Places I never would have thought we would be mentioned. A VAWA press release mentioned this and americanwomensuck.
We have been noticed.
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Re: Are “shaming tactics” finally losing their pow
Post by AppleJack on Jan 14, 2006, 3:51pm
We have been noticed.
I’ve seen some of the stuff the feminists write on their blogs and websites and I find it to be quite hateful and offensive in nature, and yet that’s perfectly okay for them? If anyone is guilty of committing hate crimes in words and deeds, it would be these outrageous gasbag feminists who quite publicly call for the castration and murder of all men.
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Re: Are “shaming tactics” finally losing their pow
Post by morpheus on Jan 14, 2006, 3:51pm
Jan 14, 2006, 3:28pm, rule62 wrote:
This board is getting mentioned in some interesting places. Places I never would have thought we would be mentioned. A VAWA press release mentioned this and americanwomensuck.
We have been noticed.
Really? Can we get a link to that press release?
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Re: Are “shaming tactics” finally losing their pow
Post by sayonara on Jan 14, 2006, 4:04pm
Jan 14, 2006, 3:51pm, morpheus wrote:
Jan 14, 2006, 3:28pm, rule62 wrote:This board is getting mentioned in some interesting places. Places I never would have thought we would be mentioned. A VAWA press release mentioned this and americanwomensuck.
We have been noticed.
Really? Can we get a link to that press release?
Here is one I know of:
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Re: Are “shaming tactics” finally losing their pow
Post by morpheus on Jan 14, 2006, 4:13pm
Jan 14, 2006, 4:04pm, sayonara wrote:
Here is one I know of:
It mentions AWS and nomarriage.com. dont-marry.com is not in there. Nitpicking, I know, but don’t confuse nomarriage.com with dontmarry.com.
That’s a funny press release, nonetheless.
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Re: Are “shaming tactics” finally losing their pow
Post by BartSimpson on Jan 14, 2006, 4:36pm
Promoters of the INTERNATIONAL MARRIAGE BROKER REGULATION ACT strategically link international matchmaking organizations with human trafficking rings in effort to gain bipartisan support.
Strategic linking of marriage brokers with human trafficking rings aids in gaining bipartisan support for law intent on eliminating international matchmaking companies and websites.
(PRWEB) July 4, 2004 — To gain bipartisan support for the International Marriage Broker Regulation Act, we endorse the strategies of (1) using “womens’ protection” as the main theme of the law; and (2) claiming that American-based marriage brokers are part of global human trafficking rings, however unfounded.
We also support provisions of the Act that will require brokers to conduct large quantities of consent verifications and background checks before American men can write love letters or make any contact with foreign women. These provisions will make it very difficult for American-based marriage brokers to organize those disgusting overseas introduction “parties” where women outnumber men 100 to 1. These provisions will also drive up costs to the point of putting most brokers out of business. In addition, this law effectively places “warning labels” on American men thus decreasing demand for them among foreign women over time.
Although this law is long overdue (and hopefully not too late), we welcome the Marriage Broker Regulation Act of 2003 as a means to regulating the often arrogant and brazen international marriage broker industry. This industry has gone from the fringe to the mainstream. The American male population is now overly exposed to the message that it is acceptable to desire and actually marry women “unspoiled” by American materialism and most troubling, “uninfected” by American feminism. This message may impede the progress of feminism here at home and give American men the idea that it is acceptable to not respect feminist principles that took so long to instill upon them.
The marriage broker websites promulgate the “message” that American men are highly desirable outside the U.S. and can have access to women not intent on upholding over 30 years of hard won womens’ rights. These sites also offensively elaborate on the reasons for rejecting American women as part of a campaign to promote the desirability of foreign women. We find this to be most appalling.
Certainly, the existence of this industry is indicative of the sad state of romantic relationships between men and women in North America; however, it by no means should be allowed to continue unregulated. Sites such as www.americanwomensuck.com and www.nomarriage.com are problematic enough.
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Re: Are “shaming tactics” finally losing their pow
Post by antiriad on Jan 14, 2006, 5:07pm
You can fool some of the people all of the time.
You can also fool all of the people some of the time;
But you cannot fool all of the people all of the time.
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Re: Are “shaming tactics” finally losing their pow
Post by Riskbreaker on Jan 14, 2006, 11:26pm
Some words from Zenpriest and Mancoat about shaming and trolls:
jahmichael
There are several vague concepts floating around in this discussion which I believe it will be to men’s benefit to clarify.
When I said “if you bite, they win” I was referring to the manipulative tactic of insulting and offending you in order to get a reflexive reaction of trying to disprove the accusation, not to the issues of desire or infatuation. Take a meaningless phrase like “self-loathing closet (or basket) case” or “misogynist” or “homophobe” and apply the solution “if you were not _______, you would eat dog shit” and I think you can see the irrelevancy of the manipulation.
The largest essential energy of feminidiocy is “the whole rest of the world has to change, so I don’t have to.” I don’t want men to fall into the same trap of helplessness. All real power begins with mastery of self. If jedmunds or another mangina or feminidiot trys to insult and offend me, I can choose between changing their actions or my reactions. It is the outward focus and insistence on changing other people instead of changing themselves which makes the feminidiots so offensive and destructive. Let’s not fall into the same trap ourselves.
Who the hell is jedmunds, or Amynda, or Hugo, or any of the other femnag/maginas, and, really, why in the world would I give a flying fuck what they think of me?
The first thing a man has to do when he starts to go his own way is to claim the power to define himself and take that power away from people he has absolutely no reason to respect or care about their judgment.
To illustrate a major but subtle drift in cultural values - the attempted putdown/dismissal “you’re just angry because you can’t get laid” could not have existed in the world I inhabited up until I was about 21. Sex was something which happened only within marriage, or at least that was the way it was supposed to work and if it was otherwise people did not make it the subject of daily conversation.
When the social roles of breadwinner versus homemaker began to blur, and the great social reconstruction experiment of unisex be forced on a population who really didn’t want it, identity for both sexes became shallow and superficial. Women began acting and dressing like sluts so they could prove to the world and themselves that they were still female. That definition of femininity began to blur over into the definition of masculinity and men were also defined purely by their sexual appeal - ie. how often they could “get laid”. The paradox in the values operating in our culture is perfectly illustrated by the fact that “getting laid” is also referred to as “getting lucky.”
Female sexuality is way overvalued in western culture. It has become the unsatisfying substitute for deeper emotional connections. It has become just another commodity to brainwash people into chasing, and spending money on so that they get trapped into the work-earn-spend-work more-earn more-spend more trap of wage slavery.
It is far easier to get laid than it is to get loved, which is what I think most of the guys here really are looking for. When such men allow the jedmunds and Hugos and Amyndas of the world to dehumanize them by defining them by only one superficial aspect, they allow those other people to do violence to them - in the literal sense that “violence” means “to violate.” Most guys here would understand the principle that if someone attempts physical violence against them, they have both the right and responsibility to stop that other person if they can.
The same is true of mental and emotional violence. When someone attempts to redefine me in bullshit terms, I can choose either to go along with it and follow the rest of the lemmings off the cliff of insanity, or I can reject those values. It reminds me of old kids’ jingle “sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me.” Words can hurt us, but only if we allow them to. The emperor has no clothes and if we allow fools to make us feel badly for saying so, then we are participating in the very problem we are bitching about.
The secret of power is the willingness to act, and to ignore all those who try to demand that we become as helpless and powerless as they are.
*
Since we are talking about eastern principles of thought and action, let’s take one from the practice of ju jitsu - use your opponents’ weight against them.
Once someone has found and knows how to keep their psychological/emotional center, just like their physical center in martial arts, it becomes easier to keep your own balance while using your opponents’ moves against them.
A great counter-move to the “you’re just angry because you can’t get laid” feint is to reply “Nah, I’ve gotten ‘laid’ plenty. What I’m so pissed off about is how useless and awful American (or whatever group the woman or mangina represents) are when you get them into bed.”
I guarantee that you will put the would-be gamer on the defensive and that you will start getting some variation of the old saw “but, not all women are like that!!!! You have just been meeting the wrong kind of women.”
The response to this needs to be “yeah, whatever. Gotta go. C’ya, bye.”
*
The strawberry of freedom from our old roles as specialized beasts of burden born and bred for the sole purpose of dragging around an emotional and financially dependent wife and children, is right in our faces. We can pluck it, eat it, and savor it, or we can look at the tiger of man-bashing above us on the cliff, and at the rocks of failure below, and choose not to enjoy our lives in any way.
Or, we can take a clue from Japanese men, and see that a high-maintenance annoying whining woman will detract from and be a barrier to our ability to be happy, rather than being the means by which we achieve happiness.
I am suggesting that the more women chase and covet the trappings of power, the less power they end up having.
*
Ah, my old reliable friend in dialectic.
I thought I already spelled that out, both here and in the essay which Ragnar posted. Women and manginas choose their weapons based on their own fears. When they try to use shame, fear, uncertainty, and projected inadequacy as weapons against us, they actually show us their greatest weakness, their own greatest fears. They expect us to fear what they fear, and when we do not reward their manipulations, the pony has no 2nd trick to fall back upon.
The bloated sense of self-worth is the weight which we can use. As the men here have repeatedly observed, women require constant reassurance of their worth, or their sense of self literally begins to dissolve. Tell a woman or a mangina that you actually find them worthless, and they will instantly begin to twist themselves into pretzels trying to convince you otherwise - exactly as they expect you to do when they attack yours.
This is why the “neg hit” of the player works so well. And, why inserting the hypothalamic pause between stimulus and reaction swings the pendulum of power to the male side.
*
And what do many women and men fear? Isolation. Being alone. Being unloved by members of the opposite sex. Being dehumanized by members of the opposite sex. Being thought of as sexually undesirable. Not mating. Not having children. Being a genetic dead end.
Feminism operates with the weapons of social isolation. Isolate and shame the man that refuses to be a doormat. “No woman will love you!” “You’re a loser who can’t get a date!!” “You can’t get laid!” *You have a small penis”.
But some of us have passed through the blackness and have reached the other side. We are beyond the point of caring about what women think about us as potential mates. Our systems have become resistant to the strains of gynocentrism. Just what is the trophy spouse, trophy girlfriend supposed to do for us? Is the momentary release of sexual tension we get worth the price we pay? What about their love? What is it? What does it mean? Somebody needs to stand up and ask the question , “Why does the Empress not wear any clothes, and why does she have a booger hanging from her nose?” We have gone 30 years and have not asked the basic question in response to the idea that men must win the hearts of women …. WHY?????
*
Ultimately, what women don’t want to come to terms with is that they are responsible for their own happiness in the long run. Sure, there are things that can make a person’s lifestyle better and brighter, but forcing and imposing demands on someone else to fulfill their needs completely will never work. I must admit on my own behalf, I go through periods of loneliness and some mild yet enduring, perhaps caustive, depression concerning being without a significant other. I’ve been in a couple of relationships and I miss the good times. Very much so. But if I can’t find some kind of contentment out of life with my own devices, no matter how profound or mundane, relying 100% on a woman on a continual basis will only bring disappointment and grief.
Women could compliment men if they seriously desired it. Instead, they want to compete with and emotionally bulldoze them.
Women hate being deprived of men’s attention. I’ve been called selfish since I’m an ‘iron fist’ with women involving financial matters, grinning at them to prove themselves without being overt. It drives them nuts. In an ever-ceaseless drive to attract and resist, they seemed to have overlooked something; what if men weren’t always lining up so they could set them up for failure by rejecting or exploiting men (and revel and have a good laugh with their bar slut, fair-weather friends)? What if men stopped giving a damn about the games they play?
Don’t get me wrong. Again, I confess the possibility of going without a life-long partner still tears at me at times. I won’t like thinking too much about it. On occasion, it bothers me deeply. But after reading the horror stories married men face on another place on this forum, it was incredibly sobering. I could not possibly imagine my covenant with a woman turning into shit like that because of her transformation into a FAP (Feminist American Princess). Perhaps the hypothetical ’she’ was always like that, waiting to emerge. It would be worse than going solo.
The opposite of love is not hate, but indifference. As much as women can fool themselves otherwise, it outright disturbs them when men stop caring.
And I think women heap scorn and ridicule on men because they are absolutely scared shitless of being alone. Yes, men like me don’t always care for the prospect of being alone either, but we manage. We learned early on, even. Like when our parents told us in our formative years to pick ourselves up after scraping our knees after a bicycle accident or getting a bloody nose in a school yard scrap. In contrast, American women in particular are under the hidebound illusion of being a ’strong, independent women’ while most are nothing of the sort, heavily using their female peers, the government, workplace advantages, their husbands, and cultural re-assurances that they possess more personal power than they really, in actuality, have.
And as for predatory females on the hunt, who castigate men with their gazes, dating scene games, who use the typical “You’re not man enough for me” ruse to placate their impoverished egos that gives life to their little worlds, I probably could say more, but I’ll sign off for now with this . . .
It’s a terrifying thing when the prey starts laughing at the hunter.
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Re: Are “shaming tactics” finally losing their pow
Post by antiriad on Jan 15, 2006, 11:18am
Western women have simply overplayed their card. They irrationally assumed that they could keep pushing men into a corner and men would endlessly tolerate it. This is why you have so many women coming to this forum (and others) posting under men’s names and desperately trying to keep the dam from bursting.
Yet each time one of them posts, it only strengthens my resolve because I can clearly see the fear and desperation in their feeble attempts to shame us into submission. Once you have left the fematrix, you can see these people for what they are and their attacks against you lose all power and relevance. In fact, they accomplish quite the opposite as men awakened from the fematrix only see things with increasing clarity. Traditionally, men’s position vis-a-vis women was defined by chivalry. Once these women overstayed their welcome and all chivalry was relinquished, women lost any and all power they once held over men. That is what women ignored all along in “becoming liberated” - that they would indeed no longer be seen as the “weaker sex” and thus granted implicit privileges. It doesn’t matter whether the government is on their side because they will fight a losing battle as men become indifferent to their plights. That is why so many women come here for damage control; but it’s too late for that, they were too greedy to be content with a very good thing and now they’re going to lose it all as a consequence. All the government privileges in the world will ultimately mean nothing once men turn their backs on them.
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Re: Are “shaming tactics” finally losing their pow
Post by khankrumthebulgar on Jan 15, 2006, 11:54am
One of the greatest lies of Feminism was that Men conspired to put down Women. Please tell me how dying working to support a Family is putting down a Woman. In the past many Jobs Men had and still have are very hazardous jobs. We didn’t lose 12 Women Coal Miners.
Years ago I had a job selling High Reach Equipment to the Copper Mines in Arizona. Some were so isolated you were instructed to call from a pay phone when you left for the mine. If you did not show up in the alloted time a Search Party was sent for you.
Yet Men took the jobs to support families. Risking death every day. I had enormous respect for these Normal, ordinary and decent Men. These types of Men are the backbone of our culture. You saw them on 911 standing in line awaiting absolution many knowing they were going to their deaths. Ponder that reality.
That was my epiphany that Gender issues and the culture war were the most critical issues of our time. It awakened me from a sleep. My oldest Son left to do rescue work at the World Trade Center looking for survivors. He is now fighting their killers in Afghanistan.
I have validated my masculinity. I have 5 Grandsons and 5 Children. It is about them and their future now for me. My Uncles were all strong Men. They fought the Nazis and Imperial Japan. One fought in Okinawa, Korea, and VietNam. A career Marine. My ancestors fought to defend this nation from the time two brothers came from Germany and fought with the Calloway mounted regiment in KY.
Shaming language only has power over you if you allow it to. I could give a shit what some FemNags think. And if I ever meet Hugo the SOB is going to be looking for his teeth. You are under no obligation to support this corrupt system that is exploiting you. Set your own goals. Do you own thing. Who cares if it is conventional.
What is the alternative? Being a wage slave to some ungrateful Nag? Unplug from the Fematrix and it loses its power over you. Be your own Man.
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