I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone good.
——————————————————————————–
I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone good.
Post by Susan on Jul 25, 2005, 8:50pm
I am amazed at people on this site. Do you really think FW (foreign women) are the answer to your problems? Do you really think AW (American Women) are feminist wastes of space?
Believe me I have had my moments of hating men and swearing off love. However, I am still a romantic- peppered with a huge dose of realism. I would say I am a feminist as well- not psycho over the top- but hopeful that both sexes can get along and respect each other as equals.
I am newly married, so possibly still too happy to be taken in by this negativity. But I just want to say, marriage is not bad. I was nervous about getting married. I think educated women are just as worried as men about all the problems that can arise. We are not all baby wanting, stay at home wanna be’s.
I think it is possible to find someone that is a huge positive influence on your life, and with hard work you can keep a relationship strong and happy.
I am not saying that I don’t want kids, and want to stay at home with them. Actually my husband and I have had discussions about this, and I would be perfectly happy if he wanted to stay home with them. I do think it is important for kids to have someone at home with them during their early developmental stages. I really believe kids are more well adjusted and secure if they have a strong home life early on. Being shuttled to day care where they are exposed to undisciplined bratty kids, and possibly sexual abuse scares me to no end.
Every situation is different of course, and who knows what we will decide when everything shakes out.
But just for the record, I want you to know there are some good women out there. I consider myself to be one, and the negativity of this article galls me.
During our time together. I have financially helped my husband in many ways. He had a large amount of credit card debt. He had a loan, loans on his car and motorcycle and rarely dealt with bills. I have never carried a credit card balance, know better than to spend money i don’t have and have over an 800 credit score. I got his spending under control- so he paid off his credit card bills, and I paid off his 8k loan with money I had saved to pay my school loans.
So actually I was the one taking on the scary financial position by pairing up with him.
On his part- he has a steady job and we are capable of living on his salary alone, which takes a lot of pressure off of me. I am a new attorney, and I haven’t found a permanent position in a job where I feel fulfilled. I do have about 14k in student loans left- but that could be paid off in about a month if I didn’t want to have any savings.
Anyway. Neither of us can cook very well, but we are both willing to learn. We are both handy, and bought a house soon after marriage- we are constantly fixing things up. We both work hard inside and outside the home.
As for the wedding/ring and all that jazz. He proposed with a 500$ band- because I wouldn’t allow him to take out a loan for a ring. We spent 3500$ on a small wedding and it was wonderful. We have yet to go on a honeymoon, because I haven’t found a great deal yet. Oh yeah, and I offered to write us up a pre-nup if he wanted. Neither of us have much of anything now, but I plan for us to, plus I saw my parents go through a divorce. We didn’t do a pre-nup, possibly we are just naive and hopeful, as most people are that are starting a life together.
But I truly believe that if you start off with little or nothing together- then you both deserve 50% if it goes sour.
One comment on the original article. The author said something about kids giving a woman leverage and she was lucky to get child support till age 18. Children need a lot of things, and the woman isn’t walking off scott free with a wad of cash. She is a single parent dealing with the expensive prospect of raising a child alone. Child support is not some gift, it is a man taking care of his responsibility- he was there for the creation of the child. He should be a man and provide for it.
Ok, I should be doing actual work rather than ranting on this web site. I am still at work at 10:45pm, when I would much prefer to be at home with my husband. I just want you all to know, there are as many bad men as women, and you just have to look long and hard for a good mate, someone that will understand you, and accept your flaws. I really think we all want the same thing, to be happy and know we are cared for.
“Feminism is the radical notion that women are equal”
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Riskbreaker on Jul 25, 2005, 10:05pm
The injustices can go from bad to worse when children enter the picture. If the man can afford to carry the entire financial burden, the woman can elect to stop working. (Regardless of how the man may feel about the decision) The day the woman stops working is the day all of her past financial baggage unequivocally gets thrown onto the man’s head. If the woman has racked up credit card debts, these are now his payments. If the woman has not bothered to pay off her student loans, these also become the man’s responsibility. (Stomach-churning irony = the man is stuck paying for her degree, and she’s not even working anymore!!) And can the man object? Can he say, “No, you made your mess, and it should not be my job to clean it up. You knew you wanted kids even before you met me, and you should have planned ahead.” No, the payments can’t be deferred until she is once again able to continue repaying them herself (Besides, that day may never come) Not if he wants to retain a clean credit rating to get a loan for their dream home. If he even suggested that she return to work to pay off her own debts, he would be chastised as bad father, endangering the welfare of his newborn. So, the responsible husband now compensates for the mother’s freewheeling irresponsible past, and pays off all her debts. In yet another sick twist of irony, the husband may be paying off credit cards used to finance vacations and xmas gifts shared with previous boyfriends, etc. Buyer beware! This is the reward for today’s man who works hard, makes sacrifices, plans ahead, and invests wisely. Again, this doesn’t always happen. But by getting married, the man is certainly susceptible to being railroaded into this situation, because it is completely acceptable within today’s accepted gender roles. Are all women like this? No. Could this be your future wife? Possibly.
Webster’s defines slavery as “the state of being under the control of another person.” If the husband earns enough to support both of them, he would be hard pressed to make an argument to preserve equality, and have her continue working as he does. If the wife decides to stop working, the men who have been left holding the financial bag find their options limited. They may find themselves stuck in careers they hate, or working for abusive exploitative management, working excessively long hours, working in jobs that are physically threatening, that have no growth potential, enduring prolonged commutes, etc. At this point, considering the corner he’s been painted into, he is often powerless to affect any change in his own life. A husband may have been harboring delusions that once the wife was able to return to work, he would gain some flexibility to rectify some of the shortcomings in his own career (For example, changing careers or accepting a lower salary at a different firm, in exchange for better hours, shorter commute, and/or more fulfilling work, etc) But, a distinct reality is that he will continue to shoulder the financial responsibilities alone….A man’s reward for working hard and getting ahead is to become trapped into his career, and shoulder the financial burdens of a family alone. Does it pay to work hard anymore?
*Some advice Susan-reread the essay and note that you are becoming one of the women mentioned on the site. You can say it’s bitter, but the REAL bitterness is the fact that you choose to skirt the truth rather than face it.
*THE RULES and REGULATIONS, For Men.
Ever watch the Bachelor or Joe Millionaire? It’s the perfect experiment in just how far women go when they want a desirable man, who is made more desirable by the fact that other women want him and are competing for him. After a while, it’s not even about the man, it’s about the competition and validation. Do you think for a minute that those women were in love? Hell NO! Women are so self-deceptive that you can’t even trust them when they tell you they love you, especially when they’re benefiting greatly from being in the relationship.
This is why marriage with American women is not desirable anymore, because it means that they don’t have to do anything to keep you interested after they’ve got what they want. They have no more incentives. Now they can get fat, cut off all of their hair, have less sex with you, and there’s nothing you can do about it. It is a power shift, and I would advise any man no to allow any woman to have that kind of power over him. Women abuse the rules that protect them at an incredible rate, and they’re often so fucked in the head that they can dig deep and find some erroneous, illogical, irrational justification for it. They just don’t have any incentive to keep you interested anymore.
DATE FOREIGN as much as possible. No experience in life will wake you up to the fact that American women aged 18-35 are the most atrocious, toxic, demanding, unappreciative, contemptuous, self-obsessed, self-centered, self-focused, man-hating, bigoted, lying, double-standard following, deluded creatures in the galaxy. American women do not mature to any great degree between the ages of 13 and 35, because society does not require them to.
Find a South American, a Central American, a Southeast Asian, a Philipina – and you will see the difference. Some of the women in these countries are actually appreciative of the things you do for them. They actually make you want to do more for them simply because they actually deserve it, rather than feel entitled to it and demand it for nothing. Some of them actually like sex, enjoy sex, don’t make you jump through unnecessary hoops for it, and don’t use it as a bargaining chip. You can actually be honest with them. And because some of them come from countries where the men are not pussified, feminized, metrosexual men, they actually appreciate men that are even semi-nice guys. You can be the nice guy you once were without a problem.
American women just don’t really respect men. They think men are idiots and should be manipulated and they feel justified in manipulating men because they rationalize it through a false sense of superiority.
So many American women are so spoiled these days that they just don’t understand sacrifice. How many would sacrifice living in a house they can afford for a studio apartment so that the excess money could be used to invest or make more money? They would rather meet a man who has already made the sacrifices to be successful. It’s better that you take the risks and make the sacrifices it takes to be truly successful (if that’s your goal) before you settle down. Shit, don’t settle down with an American woman at all, keep your money!
American women will act as if they care about your needs only to the extent that their own needs are already taken care of. Women need to realize that self-sacrifice is a male trait, something for which we’re biologically wired. That’s why we do the heavy lifting, fight the wars, die first, jump in front of bullets to save them, let them off the sinking ship first, do the worst, most dangerous jobs, commit chivalrous acts to benefit them that in no way benefit us, etc.… Women need to learn self-sacrifice and unlearn selfishness. Unfortunately, feminism took away the cultural and social controls that governed and limited female selfishness and self-centeredness. That is why the “ME society” began.
Feminism taught American (Westernized) women that any selfless act they do for men is “oppression”. They have been conditioned to think that doing any little thing for a man makes them a “slave”.
To the male brain, kindness is respect and should be encouraged… to the female brain, kindness is weakness and should be exploited.
———————–
ABOVE ALL – NEVER, EVER GET MARRIED. It is a prison sentence. In most states in the USA there is no incentive for a man to get married as odds are you will be legally reamed if the relationship deteriorates from ‘rape within marriage’ allegations (her words against your and guess who they believe), to ‘domestic violence’ allegations (again her word against yours), to child support, to alimony. A divorce allows a woman to financially ruin a man guilt free. It gets worse if you have children because then you have to pay support for a child that has a 25% chance of not being biologically yours. As a man you’re taking all of the risk and reaping NO REWARDS.
Only one out of six chambers of the gun is loaded in Russian Roulette, but you still don’t see everyone playing it. The 16.67% chance of getting your brains blown out is still far better than the approximately 40% chance a man has of having his life destroyed by a marriage with a woman. Marriage is becoming the social Edsel of the 21st century. Would you buy any product which failed more than 50% of the time?
To American women the ideal husband is a docile schmuck who slaves away at work, pays her bills, and doesn’t pester her for sex. Marriage used to provide access to sex. Now it provides access to celibacy.
Women have absolutely no compunction about “FORCING” their husbands to do any damn thing they want them to, up to and including forcing them to support kids that they don’t want or aren’t even theirs, and the law thinks that is just great. But, let a man push the issue even once in that magical territory of sex, and he gets a criminal penalty equal to having killed someone.
American women are great for easy casual sex, but make terrible wives.
Marriage is a license to take someone for granted. You lose all of your bargaining power once you get married. The woman can then gain weight, cut off all of her hair, stop having sex or stop performing certain acts, and there’s nothing you can do about it short of divorcing her and accepting the dire consequences thereof. She has no incentive to remain attractive to her husband.
Relationships are always about power and control. That is why a man should never let a woman have power and control over him in that way. That’s not to say the man should have power over the woman, it just means that neither should have power over the other. Relationships would actually be better if neither party had power and control over the other. The less that the parties have invested in each other (financially), the less problems there will be.
Susan, many before you have tried shame, guilt and nagging tactics. We KNOW there are bad men, and your sisters pick them and expect us to ’save’ them when it all falls apart. We’ve decided to treat you all as equals, listen to your problems and tell you to ‘SUCK IT UP!!’.
If you want men to want to go back into families, you have to put something back into families for men. Right now, it is all cost and obligation and no benefit at all. The guilt trips and mind games are wearing out. Fewer and fewer men are masochistic enough to enslave themselves to a life of torture for an occasional bit of bad sex.
As a nicer guy, for too long have I experienced the above behaviors in too many American females. In order to save other men from the treacherous pitfalls of getting screwed, I created this list.
By destroying the essential foundation of courtesy and respect formerly part of “dating” relationships, women have invited men to treat them with the same contempt that women have been showing to men for the past 4 decades. Many men are promoting an approach to women which is equally ruthless and exploitive to the one which women have been pursuing toward men since the late 1960s. Men like myself, who have fought long and hard against the exploitation and counter-exploitation cycle which has created the gender war, are beginning to say “You GO, guy.” to such men and helping to spread the means to do so.
dontmarry—because you WILL do better by yourself.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Susan on Jul 25, 2005, 10:26pm
Why are you copying and pasting from the article? Did you write it yourself, or do you not have any of your own thoughts?
I just gave personal examples from my own experience why marriage isn’t bad. The first year is suppose to be one of the hardest, and we are surprised how smoothly it has gone.
And truly if sex is all that you are worried about, then you should go get an underprivileged uneducated woman that needs your money so much that she will do anything you want anytime you want. If you want a woman that is your equal both inside and outside the bedroom you need to look for someone who doesn’t need you, but wants you.
By the way, how am I becoming one of the women on the site? I am at work past midnight, making more than my husband does, have a very fulfilling home life, and I appreciate everything my husband does for me. I also know that he appreciates what I do for him.
I feel lucky and happy when i come home and he is there, it is great to be able to crawl into bed with someone I trust and love.
Everyone knows the figures on divorce- and many have experienced it first hand, you don’t have to sell out and try to make everyone hate women just because you were thrown to the wolves.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by HappilySingle on Jul 25, 2005, 10:29pm
Susan,
As a bachelor who will turn 50 later this year, I second what Riskbreaker said.
I’m a nice guy – successful, educated, intelligent – and for the first 35 years of my life I expected to be married. But women changed in the 80s. Suddenly they were “empowered” – they had to bring nothing but themselves to a relationship, and they were worth it because they were them. Be a housewife: cooking, cleaning? Sexist. Work? No, I want to stay home and be treated like a princess.
And by my mid-30s. not only had I tired of the “oppressed princess syndrome”, but I saw a number of my friends go through financially devastating divorces (or remain in hellish marriages). Moreover, I noticed that the vast majority of the older single men I knew were happy, financially secure, and not the lonely, bitter, unhappy people they are made out to be.
I’m sure there are good women out there, just as I know there are men that are total scumbags. But, as Riskbreaker mentioned, the odds are a lot better at Russian Roulette than at marriage in America today.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Susan on Jul 25, 2005, 10:40pm
Happily Single
I think a lot of the problem with marriage is getting married young. I think as we learn more about ourselves we are better able to choose someone that compliments us and balances us out.
I understand that at 62, if you have never been married then you are set in your ways, and it would be very difficult to get used to sharing your life and answering to someone.
I didn’t think I would ever find someone who could put up with me. I figured I would end up alone, because I wanted a man that would love and respect me, but also open doors and be there when times got tough. I like having someone to work out in the yard with and share dreams with. i know it’s hokey.
my grandparents didn’t get married until 42 and 35, and of course that was back in the day when that was just OLD. My parents divorced- but still loved each other. So although I know the ugliness of divorce, I also believe that if you go into marriage with open eyes, it can hopefully work out to benefit both people.
everything in life is a risk, but if i can jump out of airplanes, swim with sharks, and run with the bulls, marriage can’t be too bad?
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Susan on Jul 25, 2005, 10:41pm
Sorry I saw 62 posts and thought it was your age. I see you’re 50
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by OlderBachelor on Jul 25, 2005, 11:07pm
Susan,
I think you are over generalizing about some of the posters on this site. Neither the Author nor myself have ever advocated marrying a foreign woman as any sort of solution to the marriage conundrum. I, being a sort of Nietzschean Existentialist (with a strong dose of Ayn Rand) don’t think there IS a solution at all – a thinking person has to adapt to the situation at hand and make the best of it. I never have and never will be married. This is not to condemn the institution absolutely. I do think that it does need a radical overhaul to fit human realities, as if it fit human need it would not have 50% (at least) failure rate. What I am here to do on this site is to encourage a wider view of the world, a sense of greater possibility. Trying fit everyone (Especially young men) into the Procrustean Bed of marriage is just another way the system tries to crush the individual.
I have a position of authority were I work (Major Fortune 500 Corp) and I am a never-married man of 43. I have something of the reputation of a playboy. When the twenty-something guys come into my office for advice, I tell them this: Read GOOD books. Work hard and save money. Travel as much as you can. And the single most important point – Don’t get married until and unless you are over 30 and ready to have kids now. If you don’t want kids, don’t get married. If you want “The road less traveled” life of adventure – don’t get married. In many ways, marriage is a dead penalty for a man’s hopes and dreams. I couldn’t have done half of the cool things I have done in life if I had to drag a wife around. Just this last few months I have gone to India twice, and I will be spending at least a few months with my half-brother in Manila later this year. He never got married either, is over 60, and has TWO twenty something Filipino girlfriends. He lives near a beach, has traveled all over Asia, has a nice house and a nice boat, and has TWO hot young girlfriends. Try that, normal American suburban daddy!
I tell the young guys this:
There is a better way. There is a way out of the “House in the ‘Burbs/Two Car/Married with 2.5 kids/Dog” way of life. The system wants you encased in that straitjacket because it makes you much easier to control. Don’t play. Don’t get married, don’t have kids. You have no moral obligation to procreate. Live a life of adventure.
If your new husband had come to me and asked, I would have told him he is free to do as he will. He is a free moral agent. But I would have strongly advised him to carefully consider what he is giving up if he marries and encouraged him to “Take the Road Less Traveled”.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by you on Jul 25, 2005, 11:26pm
Jul 25, 2005, 10:26pm, Susan wrote: I am at work past midnight, making more than my husband does, have a very fulfilling home life, and I appreciate everything my husband does for me.
There’s nothing a husband enjoys more than coming home to a dark house with nobody home. His home life sure sounds fulfilling.
Your feminism will destroy your marriage.
Guaranteed.
Entitlement. Empowerment. Defined.
You’re already competing against your husband.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by OlderBachelor on Jul 25, 2005, 11:36pm
Susan,
Also, I am hardly bitter, and I do like women. I date quite a bit. I had dinner with a very nice Indian engineer just last night. She is 29 and is from Gujarat. We had a fascinating conversation about everything from Gandhi to Jainism (She is a Jain, and as a student of World Religions I know something about it) to Extreme Ultra Violet Lithography. Smart female – the best kind. I like her and would be willing to spend time with her. I just don’t want one in my life on a full-time basis. I see females as entertainment, certainly not worth signing your life over for. Society would try to control me with labels like “Non-committer” and “Cad” and “Player” and so forth. The way I see it if you are going against the wishes of the collective herd you are must be doing something right, since all the Great Men that ever lived did just the same thing!
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Michael on Jul 26, 2005, 1:43am
Jul 25, 2005, 11:07pm, OlderBachelor wrote:
There is a better way. There is a way out of the “House in the ‘Burbs/Two Car/Married with 2.5 kids/Dog” way of life. The system wants you encased in that straitjacket because it makes you much easier to control. Don’t play. Don’t get married, don’t have kids. You have no moral obligation to procreate. Live a life of adventure.
This is one of the saddest things I’ve ever read. Clearly, you are of better than average intellect, though I can’t claim to know anything about you beyond that. It seems to me, however, that someone who has good genes to contribute to the long biological chain of life, and refuses to – has no reason to continue breathing.
The cycle of life; the line of your ancestors reaching back into time immemorial; that’s half of why you exist. The other half is your own part in the chain that continues past you into the next generations. So, if you’re not going to be a part of that, you’re wasting oxygen, in my view.
That isn’t to say that there aren’t other purposes for people. Some of the greatest men who’ve ever lived never had children, sadly, but there are other things one can leave behind.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Michael on Jul 26, 2005, 2:04am
Jul 25, 2005, 11:26pm, you wrote:
There’s nothing a husband enjoys more than coming home to a dark house with nobody home. His home life sure sounds fulfilling.
LOL! I had exactly the same thought.
If she’s going to brag about making more money than her husband, she may as well just kick him in the nuts every day. If he’s anything of a man, that’s what it feels like.
This “oh, yes, we’ve discussed it and he’s okay with staying home with the kids” stuff (don’t recall which gal said that) tells me a certain fellow should go buy a box of spines and try one on for size. Or a brain.
Men are not naturally endowed with the nurturing capabilities that make women mothers. We build stuff and fight wars. If men were meant to nurture young children, we would have uteruses and breasts that produce milk.
Biology, not “society” or “patriarchal oppression,” determines gender roles. Last I checked, biology is a science, whereas feminism is not.
We truly do live in the Age of Stupidity.
And while we’re at it, I don’t get you guys who want a your woman to “pay her own way.” If you want her to be a good woman, manage your household, and raise the kids, that means YOU are the one who leaves the cave, kills something, and drags it home. You earn the money because she does what you cannot. Don’t ask her to go to work every day AND have dinner waiting.
Many women, however, run businesses from home, and I understand that something over 60% of the home based businesses in America are owned and run part-time by stay-at-home moms. Bravo, I say.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Michael on Jul 26, 2005, 2:08am
Jul 25, 2005, 10:05pm, Riskbreaker wrote: Marriage used to provide access to sex. Now it provides access to celibacy.
You mean, back in the bad old days when sex before marriage was frowned upon?
I’m not one to make a moral judgment on this, but it does strike me as rather obvious.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Riskbreaker on Jul 26, 2005, 3:29am
You mean, back in the bad old days when sex before marriage was frowned upon?
*Yes, in those days where sex was not used as a weapon or withholding it a form of punishment. When people made a vow and stuck to it. In today’s times, married people have less time for sex and amazingly less interest in it. For some, 10 times a year is the norm. As has been said, if you’ve already got the cow, why pay for the milk? What mysteries or surprises await the honeymoon or wedding night? Haven’t you seen or experienced it already? So, why bother with it? If single works for you, then enjoy.
Why are you copying and pasting from the article? Did you write it yourself, or do you not have any of your own thoughts?
*I copied it because many of the points you mentioned about men were covered in the essay. The copying was to re-enforce the point the author made.
I just gave personal examples from my own experience why marriage isn’t bad. The first year is suppose to be one of the hardest, and we are surprised how smoothly it has gone.
*YOUR own experience is the key phrase. It may be smooth now, but what of the future? Will you, as the rules say-The woman can then gain weight, cut off all of her hair, stop having sex or stop performing certain acts, and there’s nothing you can do about it short of divorcing her and accepting the dire consequences thereof. She has no incentive to remain attractive to her husband. This DOES happen, believe it or not.
From nomarriage.com:
When we were changing for the reception after the wedding and I tried to kiss her (and after 3 years of mind-bending sex), my wife of 45 minutes said “No more of that. We’re married now.”
My granddad told me an insightful story before my wedding. He said for the first year of marriage to put a penny in a jar every time I had sex with my wife. Starting in year two, take out two pennies every time we had sex. He said there’d be money in the jar when I died. I think he’s going to be right.
Wife is overweight, no sex, doesn’t cook anything not in a can. 3 kids. I am stuck. I can’t even cheat on her since we do a mail order company out of the house. No alone time, no peace. I think I am going crazy.
Oh, another fun aspect – wife is a born again Christian, so if I bring up the sex issue she uses the bible to justify herself. I argue that, and kazam, I am Satan, and no sex for Satan. If I do not argue, no sex for me either.
*Is marriage worth that risk? Not to me, not to many men.
And truly if sex is all that you are worried about, then you should go get an underprivileged uneducated woman that needs your money so much that she will do anything you want anytime you want. If you want a woman that is your equal both inside and outside the bedroom you need to look for someone who doesn’t need you, but wants you.
*Better idea:
Pussy is worthless. Do not chase pussy.
———-
I have noticed that a lot of “get laid fast” type message boards link to my page and I decided to write a short page about the subject. You need to learn to genially not give a fuck about pussy. It’s a hard thing to do because most American men have been conditioned and pussified to do exactly the opposite. All the “get laid fast” tricks will be useless until you learn how not to give a fuck. And once you do, you will not really need any tricks.
It is never worth it to jump through hoops and to put a lot of effort into getting or keeping pussy if all you want is sex. Pussy is NEVER worth a lot of effort. Just do what you want to do with your time. If pussy wants to come along, great. If not, just tell her to get lost. If you can get pussy with very little effort, then great. But if not, pass on her and wait for another woman to come along. Sex is just a commodity. Spend your time and energy on making money, starting a business, or travel.
*To quote a better man than me, it’s just a stinky hole, son.
Everyone knows the figures on divorce- and many have experienced it first hand, you don’t have to sell out and try to make everyone hate women just because you were thrown to the wolves.
*Hmmm, the shame tactic of ‘you hate because you are hurt or got hurt’, aka ‘we’re not all that bad’. Guess that makes me a loser, eh?
Are you a loser or a pussy?
———-
Let’s translate “loser” from women-speak into English.
“Loser” in woman-speak simply means a man who is smart enough to do things that are in HIS best interest.
You don’t spend your hard-earned money on women – you are a loser
You expect regular sex – you are a loser
You are not interested in marriage – you are a loser
You don’t want to be stuck with kids – you are a loser
You don’t want to slave away 60 hours a week so a woman can buy a new SUV every year – you are a loser
You prefer South American women who treat you better – you are a HUUGE LOOOSER
The alternative to “loser” is a pussyfied man, or simply a pussy. A pussyfied man does what a woman wants – he is a docile schmuck who slaves away at work and pays her bills and not pesters her for sex. Another words, he is an ideal husband.
*The point in life is feeling good about yourself and being happy. You are happy with your husband, and that’s cool. I’m happy having the freedom and power to do what I want, when I want. If I choose to take a day off, travel, explore this amazing world, read and enlighten myself, then who can stop me? We need other people to survive, but we don’t need other people to be happy. That can only come from within. The thought of growing old alone is not a curse, it’s a way to remind yourself of the freedom and potential YOU have, not the work and sacrifice you must make for someone who may not appreciate it or may disappear at any time.
For the record, I know a couple married over 50 years, and most of what is mentioned on this site the husband agrees with, for he has seen and experienced it all, with dating and with his wife. I ask him questions and advice and he too agrees if you are happy being single, then BE HAPPY-don’t let people shame or guilt you into a life that doesnot benefit YOU, because at the end of the day, YOU, not them have to live with the consequences.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Riskbreaker on Jul 26, 2005, 4:11am
Clearly, you are of better than average intellect, though I can’t claim to know anything about you beyond that. It seems to me, however, that someone who has good genes to contribute to the long biological chain of life, and refuses to – has no reason to continue breathing.
*Thanks for your personal opinion.
Try this one:
Children are so overrated.
——————
There is an unspoken taboo in our society where if you admit that having kids wasn’t quite what you thought it would be and that if you could do it all over again that you would have chosen NOT to have kids, that you are a monster, an evil, despicable monster.
The truth is a large percentage of parents HATE being parents. They will never say it out loud and they can’t even admit that to themselves because “only an evil demon” would come to that conclusion, they think.
However, underneath it all, underneath all the B.S. is the truth that we all know:
Children are overrated.
For every precious moment where the little brat does something special, there are 1,000 moments where they drive you crazy.
They literally tear your life upside down. Marriage, sex life, your wives appearance, your social life, the list goes on and on and on.
Oh yeah, the worst part is yet to come – the teenage years. I could write volumes on this subject.
The reason people have children is because of this unwritten societal norm where the standard is to get married and immediately begin to produce offspring because “that’s the thing to do”.
Here’s another fact for you if you’re interested in the subject: the highest points of martial satisfaction are: 1) after the kids leave and 2) before the kids were born. Look it up, it’s true.
The cycle of life; the line of your ancestors reaching back into time immemorial; that’s half of why you exist. The other half is your own part in the chain that continues past you into the next generations. So, if you’re not going to be a part of that, you’re wasting oxygen, in my view.
*interesting view. Question though: without us ‘oxygen wasters’, who would cover for you if your child gets into a situation while you’re at work? How would many of the inventions today have been created and that EVERYONE, not just ’selfish genetic hoarders’ benefit from, have come about if they had to focus more on children that their goals and passions?
Also, let’s factor in the risks of being accused of abuse, observe how many children are dying because the ‘parent(s)’ heard God tell them to execute the child, parents leaving their kids in hot cars, drowning them, exploiting them, using the children as money making tools, killing them in the womb with alcohol or drugs not to mention failure to discipline or devote enough time/energy to them. Also, who says the child is even yours? From The Globe and Mail 2000-05-20: “Anecdotal evidence suggests these numbers bear out in Canada as well…. Maxxam Analytics in Guelph, Ont., performs approximately two paternity tests a day. And according to Dr. Wayne Murray, head of the human DNA department, one out of four men who come in pointing a finger at their spouse is not the biological father of the child in question”.
From the Sunday Times 2000-06-11: “More than 250,000 tests a year are now conducted in America, and about 15,000 in Britain…. roughly 30% of men taking the tests discover that they are not the fathers of the children they regarded as their own. In the wider community, social scientists say up to 1 in 20 children are not the offspring of the man who believes himself to be their father”.
From the Observer 2000-09-03: “One study followed couples waiting for NHS fertility treatment, where the men were ‘azoospermic’, meaning they produced no sperm and were totally infertile. The researchers found that 25 per cent of the women became pregnant before fertility treatment started”.
From the American Association of Blood Banks – 2001-02-26: “The overall exclusion rate for 1999 was 28.2% for accredited labs. Exclusion rates for non-accredited US and foreign labs were slightly less at 22.7% and 20.6% respectively”.
That isn’t to say that there aren’t other purposes for people. Some of the greatest men who’ve ever lived never had children, sadly, but there are other things one can leave behind.
*Yes, like good memories, having inspired someone to do better and succeed, redirected someone on the right path, life-saving research, new vistas for someone to continue your quest/thirst for knowledge. Who says it has to be YOUR child? It can be anyone with a desire to keep YOUR dream alive.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by HappilySingle on Jul 26, 2005, 6:26am
Jul 25, 2005, 10:40pm, Susan wrote: I think a lot of the problem with marriage is getting married young. I think as we learn more about ourselves we are better able to choose someone that compliments us and balances us out.
I agree that a lot of the problem stems from people marrying too young. On the other hand, I am a full person in and of myself, and need no one to balance me out.
Quote: everything in life is a risk, but if i can jump out of airplanes, swim with sharks, and run with the bulls, marriage can’t be too bad?
Two errors here. First, for my 50th birthday I’m planning on going skydiving for the first time in my life. While I know there is some risk that the chute won’t open, I know that it’s far less than the 50% failure rate in marriage. Second, if (god forbid) the chute doesn’t open and I’m killed, my estate can sue the company that was responsible for my death. However, if skydiving companies were covered by the same laws as women in marriage, the skydiving company could sue my estate for loss of the parachute and all imputed future lost income arising from that chute not being available to be rented out.
There’s simply far too much financial risk and too little reward of any kind for me to recommend marriage to any man today.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by khankrumthebulgar on Jul 26, 2005, 7:49am
The much bandied about 50% failure rate is an overall average Nationwide. In some states California for instance it is worse. LA area nearly 75% failure rate. Second Marriages fail at a higher rate than first marriages. I have been married twice in hindsight it is a mixed bag. I have 5 Children, 5 Grandsons. My Children are a source of great joy and sorrow. Another Man is called “Dad” by the younger 3. My youngest hardly knows me at all. Was it worth it? Yes and No. Their Mother loved being married but did not love me, and after 8 years of Divorce verbalized that I was a much finer Man and Father than she had ever imagined.
It was little consolation to the financial train wreck she put me through. Spoke to her last week she is unhappy again. Her Life choices are the issue not the Men in her life. Men have been crapped on for 4 decades now. We have an insane system that rewards the dissolution of Families and removes Women from responsibility unless the laws change Men are nuts to get married.
We are also seeing a real Marriage Strike and Marriage avoiders. Without “Anchor Babies” are birth rate for Native Americans is below replacement level. This is due to Government policy enacted at the behest of Women the New Aristocracy. When the Male Pill is available our culture may collapse altogether. If you are for real you need a dose of reality from the other Gender’s point of view.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by bgrove on Jul 26, 2005, 10:52am
Jul 25, 2005, 8:50pm, Susan wrote:
“Feminism is the radical notion that women are equal”
That is so f^cking gay. Your hyperbole doesn’t obscure this simple fact. The majority of women in this country enjoy a level of privilege few men ever see. That is the f^cking point of this forum and web site. How can you possibly expect us to take you seriously when you brow beat us with this b^llsh!t. Yes, there is an imbalance in our society, and it overwhelmingly favors women.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by nameless1 on Jul 26, 2005, 12:13pm
Guys, go easy on this woman. She is just giving an example of her life as she is living it right now. In her particular situation, she happens to make more money than her husband, and I don’t think she was bragging about it, I think she is just trying to prove that independent, financially stable AW do exist. She is simply trying to let you guys know that there are some good AW out there. In no way did I get the impression that she is trying to belittle her husband, or brag. The author wrote in his original article that men want to be in relationships with their equal….right? She is portraying that she is his equal, she was the one who got him out of debt, and is currently working until 10:30 pm to live the life that she wants to live. I realize that she may be the exception to your rule, but just give the woman some credit where credit is due….
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by A Man on Jul 26, 2005, 12:25pm
Quote: Children need a lot of things, and the woman isn’t walking off scott free with a wad of cash. She is a single parent dealing with the expensive prospect of raising a child alone.
You miss the point. Of half the marriages that fail, over 70% are initiated by the wife. Meaning this “walking off” as you call it is HER OWN PERSONAL DECISION. But thanks to feminism, wifey expects the husband (you know, because she’s empowered & deserves it) to bail her out.
Quote: it is a man taking care of his responsibility- he was there for the creation of the child. He should be a man and provide for it.
And here comes the Shaming Language(tm)! You’re fully indoctrinated with the feminist disease. This is simply a refusal to accept responsibility for your actions (while accusing men of balking on theirs). Of course men are responsible. The problem is too many women want to throw away the father part & just get paid. And the state is perfectly ok with that.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by thechief on Jul 26, 2005, 12:54pm
Susan,
The problem lies not so much with the women as it does with the courts. Divorce court is horrifically slanted towards women. And 70% of all divorces–including the infamous “no fault” divorce, where both people have to go through a divorce because one person decides he or she is unhappy–are filed by women.
It’s economics, plain and simple. The risk/reward ratio is not very good for men anymore, so a larger and large number of men aren’t doing it. You found a guy, great. Hope you’re happy together. I suspect that as years go by, you’re going to see more and more of your sisters alone, or in relationships where the man refuses to commit. They may b#tch about how immature or afraid of commitment men are, but the fact of the matter is, most men have run the numbers and realized marriage isn’t in their best interest.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by NAMELESS1 on Jul 26, 2005, 1:38pm
I CAN HANDLE THE RESPONSE THAT THE PROBLEM ISNT SO MUCH WITH WOMEN AS IT IS WITH COURTS. MAYBE FOCUSING OUR ENERGY TO TRY AND CHANGE THESE LAWS WILL HELP TO BENEFIT BOTH OF US. WHILE I KEEP HEARING THAT 70% OF WOMEN INITIATE DIVORCES, I HAVE A HARD TIME BELIEVING THAT ALL THESE WOMEN KNOW WHAT THEIR RIGHTS ARE WHEN IT COMES TO DIVORCE. I MYSELF WASNT AWARE OF SOME OF THINGS I AM READING ABOUT ON THIS SITE, SO I DONT BELIEVE A LOT OF WOMEN ARE IN TUNE WITH THE LEGAL SYSTEM, UNLESS OF COURSE, THEY ARE OUT TO BURN THEIR MAN. I JUST CANT IMAGINE THAT THIS MANY WOMEN DECIDE AFTER YEARS OF BEING MARRIED THAT THEY JUST WANT TO CASH OUT THE WAY YOU ALL MAKE IT SEEM. IT HAS TO BE MORE COMPLICATED THAN THAT…UNLESS I AM JUST ONE NAIVE GIRL….
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by bgrove on Jul 26, 2005, 1:40pm
Well, the motive is certainly open to debate, but the statistics and the laws are what they are. I don’t know a lot about all of them, but I’m learning alot now….
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by NAMELESS1 on Jul 26, 2005, 1:52pm
YES, I AM LEARNING ALOT TOO FROM READING THINGS ON HERE, HOWEVER I DONT THINK ITS ALL THIS CUT AND DRY. OF THAT 70%, DONT YOU THINK A CERTAIN NUMBER MAY HAVE A GOOD REASON TO INITIATE THEIR DIVORCE? TO ASSUME THAT THE 70% JUST WANT TO CASH OUT, IS A LITTLE EXTREME. I THINK MANY MARRIAGES HAVE CHEATING THAT GOES ON, AND NO ONE REALIZES HOW PREVALENT IT IS. i WOULD LIKE TO DISCUSS CHEATING. HOW MANY MEN VERSUS WOMEN WOULD YOU SAY HAVE AFFAIRS? LETS DISCUSS THIS.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by HappilySingle on Jul 26, 2005, 2:04pm
Jul 26, 2005, 1:52pm, NAMELESS1 wrote: i WOULD LIKE TO DISCUSS CHEATING. HOW MANY MEN VERSUS WOMEN WOULD YOU SAY HAVE AFFAIRS? LETS DISCUSS THIS.
First, please turn off the caps. It’s considered shouting and rude.
Second, since (as the old adage goes) it takes two to tango, I’m guessing that cheating is probably 50/50. If I’m right, then what difference does it make who initiates the divorce, you ask? Simple – the woman almost always comes out on top financially, regardless whether she or he was the cheater.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by nameless1 on Jul 26, 2005, 2:11pm
Maybe some people dont care about finances. Sorry about the caps I wasnt even aware. All I am hearing is finance finance finance…..what about a broken home and being a single parent? Do you really think women are jumping at the chance to raise kids by themselves, or for the most part anyway. Do you really think women are attractive to other men when they are divorced with children… please…..I would not initiate a divorce unless I was being emotionally or physically abused. I think divorce is a terrible, painful thing to have to endure….and I think any normal, caring woman would not want to put herself or her children through that unless it was necessary….Again, speaking from my own heart.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by banjo on Jul 26, 2005, 2:28pm
quote: happilysingle
… Simple – the woman almost always comes out on top financially, regardless whether she or he was the cheater.
and this is the answer to Nameless’ attempt to sidetrack
this thread towards ‘cheating’ stats … ( an Unknown stat at best )
Follow the money and that’s where you’ll find the turd every time.
Now, not every woman knows about her advantage in court at first … but just wait until she has her first ’session’ with her attorney … she’ll be very well educated about what is ‘hers’ after that ’session’.
example ?
My ex’s attorney told her not to let me see my son AT ALL until the entire divorce process was completed.
Oh yeah … SHE cheated on me … she gave me VD twice!
Now … back to the regularly scheduled Thread.
banjo
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by HappilySingle on Jul 26, 2005, 3:10pm
Jul 26, 2005, 2:11pm, nameless1 wrote: All I am hearing is finance finance finance…..what about a broken home and being a single parent? Do you really think women are jumping at the chance to raise kids by themselves, or for the most part anyway. Do you really think women are attractive to other men when they are divorced with children… please….
Then let the father have custody of the child(ren) and let the ex-wife get a job and pay child support. Simple.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by OlderBachelor on Jul 26, 2005, 4:24pm
Since Susan is a Feminist, I thought this is appropriate.
OB’s view on Feminism (As a social/political/philosophical movement)
Unlike most of the guys here, I do not vociferously hate Feminism. In fact, Feminism is partly responsible for making my marriage free low commitment lifestyle possible. You might actually say I have a love/hate relationship with it.
What I don’t like about Feminism:
The fundamental tenet of feminism is the notion that girls and boys are not inherently different and are, in fact, identical. The quite apparent differences between the sexes are a “Social Construct” and are not naturally present. In my view, only an ivory-tower intellectual could be so hopelessly deluded as to believe such obvious nonsense. So the heart of Feminist theory is based on an incredible delusion. But so are lots of other institutions (*cough* Religion *cough*) so I can give them a pass here.
Feminism is also at its core an Elitist movement. Feminists don’t give a flying fig about housewives and waitresses. Feminism is about getting already wealthy ivy-league educated women in high-status careers even more wealth and even higher status. It doesn’t do anything for the vast majority of women that don’t have the ‘right’ degrees and the ‘right’ jobs. This is the root of the Feminist obsession with “Careers” and “Status”. As a poor boy from a trailer park, I just can’t go along with this one.
As supporter of Capitalism and free markets, the Marxist roots and orientation of Feminism is also Anathema to me. What do you do if you want a policy or law implemented and you can’t get it passed in the Legislature or by Ballot? You get an activist judge to force it on the people! This is just the sort of Statist intervention that leftist and socialist love. Instead of living independently and making their own way in the world, they go running to mommy government for everything. The “Perpetual Victimhood” policy of Feminism is part and parcel of this strategy. No matter what, the “The Patriarchy” is out to get them. I have been trying to join this shadowy organization for years, but I have yet to invited to any meetings, or find a member to get me in. The “Victimhood” mantra of Feminists is so ingrained that even if Hillary wins in 2008 they will spin it as “The Patriarchy” victimizing her in some way. Perhaps they say “They put her in as President in the hope she will fail!” “It’s the ultimate glass cliff!” “They are trying to discredit the concept of a woman president!” You heard it here first.
The crazy radical man-hating lesbian wing of the movement is an issue all its own. Let’s just say that sane people avoid these nutcases. The only good thing about them is they exist in fairly small numbers.
What I like about Feminism:
In concert with the sexual revolution and the Pill, Feminism encouraged women to be free and open about their sexuality. The idea that sex belongs in marriage was tossed aside and sex was decoupled completely from commitment. For a guy like me, this is a dream come true. If you a guy with half a game you can get sex with no marriage, no commitment, and no hassle. It made it possible for a person to stay single and still have a sexually active lifestyle – Something that was way more work in the past.
Feminism also helped put marriage on its deathbed. Since the radical man-hating wing of the movement hates marriage with a passion (Since it’s the primary way men enslave women) they encourage women not to marry – And ever since the marriage rate has taken a nosedive. If there is one issue I agree with them, this is it – Marriage is slavery.
Feminism has also contributed mightily to the Divorce Revolution. Feminist like Catherine Mckinnon view the sky-high divorce rate of women over forty to be a “Triumph of Feminism” and encourage even more women to dump their husbands. Why would I like this, you ask? Because it means when I get older their will be lots of divorced women for me to date!
So there you have it. In some ways, Feminism has help men immensely – If you like “hooking up” type low commitment relationships, cohabitation, and lots of single women to choose from, as I do. If you are a man looking for a devoted wife that won’t cheat or divorce you, well, then it’s really hosed you!
——————————————————————————–
Summary of posts
Post by TyHigs1 on Jul 26, 2005, 5:12pm
Let me guess:
1. Wah!!!! Not all women are bad, you losers!
2. I am one of the good ones
3. Women have as much to lose in divorce as men.
4. Wah!! Who wants to be a single mom? not me!
5. Wah!! You loser! Foreign women are not better
6. That’s right. I make more money than my husband.
7. Wah!! Women divorce men cause men are all cheaters!!
8. I spent money on my man. See!!!!!!!!
9. You want sex? Buy a slave! You loser! Wah!!
10. I am a woman. Do what I say because I have a vagina! Otherwise I will claw your eyeballs out. ::roar::
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by nameless1 on Jul 26, 2005, 5:35pm
That was pretty funny. Im still laughing….hahahah
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by cap on Jul 26, 2005, 6:57pm
As thechief said the problem is not the women, it is the courts. This is the simple reality that maybe is missed sometimes. The root of all the discontent here is caused by the family courts. For unmarried couples that break up there is some heartache, maybe bad feelings, and then they move on. No financial devastation, just move on (for conversation let’s assume no children).
The judges who cause all the destruction I believe are generally men. So maybe we should be placing a lot more blame on the men who have distorted marriage, divorce, the minds of some women, and the screwed up divorce machine we we have today.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Susan on Jul 26, 2005, 7:04pm
Older Bachelor- Yes, I am overgeneralizing posters on this sight, this entire sight is dedicated to sweeping generalizations. Mostly about women/marriage and how they can ruin your life, that is why I even bothered to post at all.
I am sorry you think of women as just entertainment. We can be so much more, and the Jain engineer sounds very interesting. You don’t have to sign your life over. If you find someone that is your equal- maybe not monetarily, maybe not success wise, but a compliment, she may be the one asking for the pre-nup- Just get one and give it a go. Is it worse to fail or to never try at all? Not that I am saying marriage is the answer for everyone. But it doesn’t have to be the death knell to your freedom.
“Work hard and save money. Travel as much as you can. And the single most important point – Don’t get married until and unless you are over 30 and ready to have kids now. If you don’t want kids, don’t get married. If you want “The road less traveled” life of adventure – don’t get married. In many ways, marriage is a dead(ie DEATH) penalty for a man’s hopes and dreams. I couldn’t have done half of the cool things I have done in life if I had to drag a wife around. “
Probably on the whole you are right. But there are women out there that love all of these things too!!
I have been to 6 continents, and have tried as many adventurous things I can find. You don’t have to DRAG a woman around if you find one with the right spirit and ambition.
Read- think for yourself- Enjoy life. Yes, sage advice. The same advice my parents gave me.
Not getting married till you want to have kids?!?!? I hope not. I know I am probably not the norm. I am 29, married 9 months, and hope to have a few more years of adventure with my husband before settling down. Honestly I hope to never “Settle” I want to live in different countries so my kids will speak different languages and be able to understand different world views. I know kids will be hard- most important things in life are.
As to, working way too late and coming home to a dark house. No doubt, I know he probably doesn’t like it much, and i hate being away. But he does come in and we go out to dinner. Then he is free to go home and play bass, read, go out with his friends- have some freedom. You can’t have a wife waiting at home all the time, and expect to have the freedom of bachelor hood.
Plus, I am only doing a contract job that will last a month. The past month and a half I have been at home waiting for him to get there and be able to cook, do projects, go to movies and plan trips. I really enjoy that time, but it is also important to socialize/work outside the home, so a woman can have some fulfillment too.
Michael
Why is competition so bad anyway? I am certainly not a threat to my husband. He is not some p-whipped pansy. Just because he wouldn’t mind staying home with the kids. He is a military officer, a triathalete, an engineer, handy, kind and respectful and honest, and believe me he has a spine and excellent brain. He is secure enough in himself to not care what society or macho neaderthals think. If he needed to stay home with the kids, he could- compassion and nurturing are things anyone is capable of, they just takes practice.
Riskbreaker
I just know the times I hated men was because they hurt me. I’m not saying anyone is a looser. it just seems that the negativity seems to come from somewhere. If you do find a woman that is your match, and she does want to get married- JUST GET A PRENUP. There are financial protections and benefits to marriage, and honestly I do think women are worse off after divorce.
Some men get fat bald and play golf all weekend- probably the same proportion of women that cut their hair off and don’t want sex.
If a woman doesn’t want sex, you are probably doing something wrong.
Happily single
Good Lord you waited until 50 to try skydiving- sounds like you needed a good woman in your life to push you into adventures:) What good is an estate if you don’ t have loved ones to give it to. I’m sure giving it to cancer research is also a good thing. Hopefully you will go out doing something awesome like skydiving, rather than alone in a hospital room. But hey, I know that is just my own desire/fear. We do all end up alone. But I know when my dad died a few months ago- he had a family that was by his side. I also know my great aunt- who was a really interesting lady- traveled the world and was a teacher, was alone and senile in a nursing home. It was really sad, and not what I aspire to.
Money comes, Money goes- it is the relationships in your life that actually mean something.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by TyHigs1 on Jul 26, 2005, 7:15pm
You guys who assume the problem is simply family court are mistaken.
The fact of the matter is that due to various factors, women are the majority of voters. They outnumber men in voting by 56 to 44. Since women are in the majority, and they vote as a block when it comes to women’s issues, then it is in the best interest of the politicians and judges to pander to the majority of voters.
As the Western world is democratic, the politicians are dependent on the support of the majority if they be elected into power and with females making up 52-56% of the population; that means that females are the majority. As a result the politicians are required to base their policies around feminist ideology as the politicians NEED the support of the majority who just happen to be females.
Women want custody of the children. So the courts award it to them the majority of the time. But, although they initiated the divorce and are strong independent women, they still want your money, so the court awards them child support payments which are artificially high due to the fact that the formulas were calculated back when women did not work outside the home, and therefore needed more money.
If women weren’t the majority of voters, things wouldn’t be this way.
The blame is not the courts per se. It’s not even lawyers, judges, politicians. It is women who want it this way. And they wont just hand over their power.
I suggest you guys start reading fredoneverything.net. He spells out everything nicely in his columns.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Riskbreaker on Jul 26, 2005, 7:45pm
If a woman doesn’t want sex, you are probably doing something wrong.
Men learn and adapt relatively quickly, and now that women have become impossible to please, more and more men are deciding to quit wasting their time and energy trying. People (especially women) manipulate you through your approval seeking behaviors. If you eliminate them, they have nothing to grab hold of. Also, eliminating these will make you feel much, MUCH better about yourself.
Getting attention is the feminine equivalent of “scoring.” For your average man, getting inside a woman’s pants is what affirms for him that he’s attractive and desirable. A man who manages to get a woman to get naked with him feels good, because he feels validated.
For women, all it takes is knowing that you want her. That’s it. Once you look at her (or strive not to look at her) in that way that says, “Wow,” she knows that she could have you if she wanted you. It reaffirms for her that her sex is worth something. It reaffirms that when it comes time for her to make her life choice she can demand a high price because she has what men want.
That’s why women lead men on and then give them the cold shoulder. Once you give her that look, you gave her what she was after. She doesn’t need anything else from you, so she sees no need to continue treating you nicely. Some women will smile at you across the room, lick their lips, do everything but rip their clothes off and masturbate in front of you but, when you cross the dance floor and say, “Hi! Want to dance?” they say, “With you? Yeah, right.” Why? Simple: the minute you walked across the floor to ask her she had what she wanted. The rest, for her, is academic. She knows that if she’s horny she can have you, but she doesn’t want you. She just wanted to know that you wanted her, and she’s all done.
Women use sex as the “loss leader” to get you in the door. It’s part of the bait & switch strategy that ultimately becomes Marriage. They use sex to get you lured in until they have you locked in and have control. They don’t really want it as much as you anyway. They always need an incentive to have sex with you, so why not give them one. Men lie to get sex, women lie to get married. Men use relationships to get sex, women use sex to get relationships. Women will deny this all day long. Feel free to ignore their denials.
Women abstain from sex more because they perceive their status increases in inverse proportion to the amount of sex they have to provide.
What women want–more than sex–is relationships. That’s why the bookstore is full of books on the topic and all the afternoon talks shows obsess over the topic (as opposed to discussing sex). So therefore, the way to “punish” women for not giving you sex is to deny them the relationships they crave. No sex, no relationship. And that rule, if adhered to by men, would do far more for males than any “men’s movement” ever could.
Women view sex as a commodity, and some even view affection as a commodity. Don’t ever give them anything in exchange for it because she’ll just try to leverage it for even more. Under a logical view of equality, sex is something that should be equally shared and equally enjoyed by both parties, canceling out any need for further compensation for the act for either party. Forget it if you think women would actually buy into this line of thinking though! They see their sexuality as costly and male sexuality as cheap (why else do they feel that on a date all they have to do is show up and you do the paying?)
If the only value women put on sex is the power that it gives them to jerk us men around, I can testify that eventually a man will lose all interest in women entirely. Supporting women like this will turn out to be very destructive toward women because as they age men will no longer do the crap work of initiating sexual relationships and taking all the risk. Women get to go along for a free ride letting the man do all the work and take all the risk, and still get half the goodies.
I suppose the best thing you could learn is that women truly have no real power here or in real life. Real power is the ability to use power but also contain it as well. That is where women fail. They sure have mastered the using; it’s the containing part that they don’t seem to know even exists.
Women are encouraged to be sexually liberated, then they are taught to stifle their man’s sexuality.
The funny thing is that many women will spend so much money buying clothes, shoes, makeup, perfume, hair products, etc. just to get all skanked up so they can arouse sexual urges in men, and then once they hook one, they complain that the man expects sex all the time. Talk about false advertising! If you want a guy who is interested in more than sex, why don’t you dress conservatively, read a few books to fill your empty head with something, and go try to start a meaningful conversation with a guy instead of acting like a street walker? Like all loud, obnoxious advertising the final product is almost never as good as the marketing department would have you believe.
When a woman uses the excuse that she needs romance in order to have sex with you, the relationship is over. It’s a cover-up, a lie for her not to admit that she just doesn’t like sex with you or that you can’t satisfy her. It could also mean that she just doesn’t like sex at all. If the sex were that good, she wouldn’t need romance. If Brad Pitt walked up on her naked, she sure wouldn’t need romance. I’ll bet that one-night-stand she had in Cancun/Greece/other foreign country (where no one would know what she did) didn’t involve romance. Maybe just substitute “Jagermeister” for “Romance”, that should put her in the mood. Women have different rules for different kinds of men and different situations. It all comes down to whatever will satisfy their needs and wants at that particular time.
Besides, 99% of the time, having romance means “spending inordinate amounts of money” to validate her worth. Too much work! Just dump her and get a whore. At least the whore leaves you alone and doesn’t subject you to her incessant blabbering once she gets paid. When a woman orgasms, it has little to do with what the man is doing to her and mostly to do with what she is doing, inside her head.
A woman can easily orgasm with any man she chooses to. If the woman you are with isn’t orgasming, it’s because she CHOOSES to see you as someone who isn’t sexually stimulating, hence the need for “romance”. It is EXTREMELY important to understand that (within limits) how sexual you appear toward a woman isn’t under your direct control. You can slim down, lift weights and even get cosmetic surgery and she won’t be attracted. She will, temporarily, be attracted to a guy who makes himself unavailable. And she definitely will be attracted if you make yourself inappropriate in some way (leather jackets, tattoos, earrings and other bad boy image stuff are favorites).
Part of this is the hilarious situation that often a woman you barely know, orgasms like a banshee at the slightest stimulation, and then becomes completely frigid later on in the relationship. Often they will try to mask this as “issues with intimacy”. But what is really going on here, is she is purposefully shutting down her own sexual impulses, because she no longer thinks she needs to please you anymore.
This isn’t true with men. A woman who makes herself look in certain stereotypical ways, will make herself generically attractive to all men. And a woman who screws you with ardor and skill, will definitely make you orgasm.
The point here is frigidity in women is a big warning sign. It is intentional, passive aggressive behavior that is just a part of the bigger issue of disrespect. If a woman starts having “sexual problems” like this, dump her immediately, for two reasons. The next one won’t (i.e., there is absolutely nothing wrong with the way you are fucking her). AND, the woman you just dumped, seems to have no problem orgasming with the biker/meth dealer living next door (even though, he is so drugged out of his mind, he can barely get it up).
*She doesn’t want sex, fine with me. I work, I make money and call girls ARE available. Once you realize that when it comes to most women-’it’s just a stinky hole’, you don’t CARE if you have sex, you don’t need to jump thru the hoops just to get it. Besides, if a guy can’t get one, there’s 3 billion + replacements out there. So she won’t put out, who cares?
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by OlderBachelor on Jul 26, 2005, 7:53pm
Susan,
I would have to say that having kids is the ONLY reason to get married. That’s why God invented cohabitation. I mean really, if you aren’t going to have kids right away why not just live together? What’s the functional, day to day difference between marriage and cohabitation if you don’t have kids? The answer is there isn’t any. Marriage only matters if there are kids involved – and unlike a lot of guys on this site I do think you should be married if you have kids.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Agitator on Jul 26, 2005, 8:05pm
Jul 26, 2005, 7:04pm, Susan wrote:
He is secure enough in himself to not care what society or macho neaderthals think.
Who else wants to bet that one day this ball-busting, emasculating, hard-line feminist’s husband will wake up and realize that his balls are neatly stored away in her purse and the relationship will take a huge dive after that?
Truly, American women don’t even know how far gone they are.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by TyHigs1 on Jul 26, 2005, 8:16pm
Jul 26, 2005, 8:05pm, Agitator wrote:
Jul 26, 2005, 7:04pm, Susan wrote:
He is secure enough in himself to not care what society or macho neaderthals think.Who else wants to bet that one day this ball-busting, emasculating, hard-line feminist’s husband will wake up and realize that his balls are neatly stored away in her purse and the relationship will take a huge dive after that?
Truly, American women don’t even know how far gone they are.
Exactly. It is funny cause she came to this board trying to prove that there are good women out there, that she is for equality and not one of ‘those bad women’, but listen to what she says, especially what she said on my thread ‘women cheat nearly as much as men.’
People who truly believe in equality don’t say such things or believe in nonsense.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Agitator on Jul 26, 2005, 10:04pm
Jul 25, 2005, 8:50pm, Susan wrote:
“Feminism is the radical notion that women are equal”
“There are people in Europe who, confounding together the different characteristics of the sexes, would make man and woman into beings not only equal but alike. They would give to both the same functions, impose on both the same duties, and grant to both the same rights; they would mix them in all things – their occupations, their pleasures, their business. It may readily be conceived that by thus attempting to make one sex equal to the other, both are degraded, and from so preposterous a medley of the works of nature nothing could ever result but weak men and disorderly women.”
Alexis de Tocqueville
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by HappilySingle on Jul 27, 2005, 4:01am
Jul 26, 2005, 7:04pm, Susan wrote: What good is an estate if you don’ t have loved ones to give it to.
If I had a crystal ball and knew exactly when I’d pass on, I’d make sure there was enough money left in my estate to pay the undertaker, and not a penny more.
Reality being the case, however, I know that one of the biggest lies taught is “money can’t buy happiness.” Buying things does not (usually) equate to happiness, but having a solid financial foundation provides security, and financial security does permit happiness.
Quote: I also know my great aunt- who was a really interesting lady- traveled the world and was a teacher, was alone and senile in a nursing home. It was really sad, and not what I aspire to.
Dying alone is not a pleasant thought, but as the author notes in the essay, marriage doesn’t guarantee companionship either. Plus, I have friends whom I expect to be close with the rest of my life, and have a strong relationship with three of my four brothers. Since I’m the oldest, odds are at least some of them will be with me until I pass on.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by khankrumthebulgar on Jul 27, 2005, 7:00am
Dear Susan,
You are discounting several factors with respect to why there is a “Marriage Strike” and why Foreign Women are an option for Men. I will endeavor to be as brief as possible. I am a twice Married twice Divorced Non-Custodial Father of 5 Children. I am 49 years of age. First issue Economics of Divorce. I live in the Dallas Metroplex. One of our top 200 employers is a Company Associated Computer Services. NYSE ACS. They employ 43,000 people. Care to guess what their core business is? They handle payment processing for Child Support in the US. The No-fault Divorce culture has created a massive Financial & Government Industry. That is a multi billion dollar industry. Do you think they will simply disappear because it is in our interest to do so? No they are an established Government & Industry bureaucracy.
Second Culture. The culture here is profoundly anti-Male.
Myrna Blyth wrote a Book called “The Spin Sisters” how the media promotes Liberalism to Women. Katie Couric, Diane Sawyer, Connie Chung, Barbara Walters, Oprah Winfrey are members. This cabal has a profound influence on our Women. It has even influenced our Religious Institutions with regards to Divorce. The Divorce rate amongst Evangelical Christians is actually a few percentage points higher than the General population. And our Culture no longer looks upon Divorce in a negative way. For an insight get a hold of the book “The Divorce Culture”.
Third Public policy. Both political parties have favored “Soccer Moms” over Men. And have enacted Women favorable and misandric anti Male policies for decades. Men are due to public policies second class citizens. The Family court system is a complete travesty of justice. It is profoundly biased towards Fathers. If Gay Marriage is approved Men will lose their standing as Biological Parents which is already weak. Canada just redefined Parenthood as “Legal Parents”. This couple with their Gay Marriage has effectively destroyed the Family in that Socialist Paradise. Hope that Bastard Michael Moore emigrates there and parks his fat a^& in a McDonalds.
Foreign Women are not superior to American Women. They are just not as influenced by our culture and brain washed into hatred of Men. Not all Foreign Women are desirable. Women from Western Europe, Canada, Australia, New Zealand are no different than their American Sisters. It is an issue of Culture. With the UN and Feminists trying to spread their hatred into the Third World with the assistance of the Ford Foundation. They are attempting to spread Feminism worldwide.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Susan on Jul 27, 2005, 10:15am
Nameless1
“Guys, go easy on this woman. She is just giving an example of her life as she is living it right now. In her particular situation, she happens to make more money than her husband, and I don’t think she was bragging about it, I think she is just trying to prove that independent, financially stable AW do exist. She is simply trying to let you guys know that there are some good AW out there. In no way did I get the impression that she is trying to belittle her husband, or brag. The author wrote in his original article that men want to be in relationships with their equal….right? She is portraying that she is his equal, she was the one who got him out of debt, and is currently working until 10:30 pm to live the life that she wants to live. I realize that she may be the exception to your rule, but just give the woman some credit where credit is due…. “
Thank You. I certainly am not bragging or trying to belittle or even compete with my husband. If you read the other posts you see that I am not consistently working, and that my husband does provide in so many ways- financially, intellectually, emotionally etc.
I was just trying to give you guys a little hope. But almost every response I have gotten is in reaction to the bad- ie the house is dark. Why is that any different than what single people come home to?
I may not be the norm, but half of my female friends are married, half are not, 1 is divorced. The half that are married, actually seem to be happy.
One went the traditional route- pregnant with their second child- stay at home- great mom. Although her husband comes from family money, so she may have help when she needs it. Plus she lives in the same town as her sister and parents, so she probably gets some help. Plus her husband seems to be great with their son as well.
Another is preg with the first kid- still at work 7 months into it- looks beautiful and sounds happy.
The two that are single and here in DC both have well paying jobs and do interesting things like take classes, trips etc. One just bought a place by herself- she is by the way the one who is divorced. Married too early, and then he cheated on her. They were only married a year, and yes she initiated the divorce, but it was a “you go your way, I’ll go mine” kind of affair.
Both would like a partner, we all agree life is easier with someone by your side who has your back.
One comment that I remember vividly during her divorce. “I thought marriage was going to be great. We’d come home from work, I’d start cooking, he’d come in smack my ass and I’d say honey wait till we finish eating, we’d have sex, life would be good.”
Personally I don’t know why things went wrong because I liked the guy. But HE was the one withholding sex, which of course i was amazed by. But she said she went so far as to lay naked across the couch when he came home to surprise him, and he still wasn’t in the mood. Anyway, I shouldn’t be talking about anyone Else’s sex life.
But yet again I want to relay my own circles experiences. We are not all bad, and I personally know a few quality women, who while they would like to find their equal, aren’t looking just for a paycheck and someone to castrate and mold into societies 2.5 kids suburbs slave.
Older Bachelor-
I just wanted to ask, at your fortune 500 co., do you have reason to know how much people make on their jobs? I would be interested to know if you believe women make as much as men for the same job?
“If your new husband had come to me and asked, I would have told him he is free to do as he will. He is a free moral agent.”
- of course he is free to do as he pleases. Other than having sex with other women, i encourage him to think, dream, and experience everything in life. He hopes the same for me.
AMan
I am not using shaming language. I just see the statistics on ‘deadbeat dads’ and think it is ridiculous. How is child support BAILING OUT, a feminist wifey?
No one, unless they were initially a bimbo after money to begin with, walks away from a marriage without a Good reason. Unless you are an idiot, you don’t make those kind of vows unless you truly hope to see them through.
Again this is why I stress that getting married too young is the problem. The thing is biologically, women need to have children younger, and I don’t think people should have children unless they are married. Children need both parents as role models- as demonstrated by so many reports. Nobody wants a paycheck over a loving husband and father NOBODY.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by thechief on Jul 27, 2005, 11:01am
Susan,
I think you honestly believe what you’re saying…now. But will you feel the same way five years from now? Ten? Fifteen?
This is one of the biggest problems–women change. At the drop of a hat. For any reason or none at all. John Ross puts it very diplomatically when he says women have “integrity to feelings,” saying that women will first and foremost always do what feels right. I have a little less politically correct view of things: Women do whatever feels right at the moment, and their word of honor–including their marriage vows–won’t stop them from doing so.
There is some biological backing for this view. There is a membrane (forget the medical term for it, maybe some member with a medical background can help me out) that connects the left brain to the right brain in all fetuses. The left brain controls emotion, the right brain controls logic. For all male fetuses, a chemical wash destroys this membrane shortly before birth. For female fetuses, the membrane stays intact. This is why women find it so difficult to make a purely rational decision, removing emotion from the equation. Example: When purchasing a car, a woman will often completely ignore information on service and reliability, fuel efficiency, potential resale value, etc, etc, and base their decision entirely on whether or not “it’s that cute color I like.”
Childbirth often makes this far worse. I have no empirical evidence, but it’s been my observation that postpartum depression runs a lot deeper and lasts a lot longer than most medical science would have you believe. I have several friends who tell me their wife was a totally different person after having kids. Different values, different attitudes toward family and domestic life, EVERYTHING, right down to their favorite color or the type of car they wanted to drive. It’s a drastic change, and from the man’s perspective, almost always not for the better.
And therein lies the problem. As Fred Reed says, “A woman marries a man thinking he will change. He never does. A man marries a woman assuming she won’t change. She always does.” Call me biased, but I think the man’s position on this is more defensible. If I buy an SUV, I accept the fact that it’s an SUV. A SUV is not a perfect car, it has it’s advantages and disadvantages like any other vehicle. But I’m an adult, I know what I’m getting in to, I’ll accept the disadvantages and enjoy the advantages. The problem comes when one day I wake up and find a Volkswagen in my garage instead of my SUV. Or a sedan, or a moped, or a monster truck. I DIDN’T BARGAIN FOR THIS!
And then, when my changed wife decides she doesn’t like the fact that I didn’t change to accommodate the new her–that she no longer FEELS good about our relationship–she can drag us both off to court. And possibly slap me with crippling alimony for the rest of my life. And possibly get half the business I started and she never contributed a dime towards. And probably get a hefty child support payment for our kids, which from now on I’ll only be seeing every other weekend.
This is why the marriage numbers are down. Men are looking at the long haul and realizing it’s just too risky.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Susan on Jul 27, 2005, 11:32am
I do buy into your logic. I think kids and pregnancy do change women, probably more than men.
But the only constant in the universe is change.
I imagine the SUV doesn’t change overnight, and hopefully, with some work everyday you will change, and appreciate the sedan/moped/monster truck that is in the garage. How boring would life be if we truly had to be the exact same people we were the day we got married?
Alimony is quite adjustable. I think now a days, it is pretty rare for a woman to get it for the rest of her life, unless it is a very long term marriage, and she truly can’t take care of herself anymore. You can also get that changed if you have a financial change in your life.
I understand that if you built a business it may seem like she didn’t contribute a dime towards it, but hopefully you do realize that she probably gave you moral support, and a loving/comfortable house to come home to at the end of the day. I find just having someone next to me saying- you can do it, just give it a shot, I’m here if you screw things up, makes everything more attainable.
Anyway, I think prenups are a good thing, and if you lay out the terms of everything ahead of time you are going to be fine in a marriage. I think a huge fear for women is that a man is going to cheat on her when she gets older- media, society etc. So if you put in an anti-cheating clause- whoever cheats, the other gets 60/40%. then women would go for it. If not, you get what you have before you come in, and everything else is 50/50%. It would encourage people to either get out before cheating occurs- which I think saves a ton of heart ache.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by you on Jul 27, 2005, 11:53am
Jul 27, 2005, 10:15am, Susan wrote: But almost every response I have gotten is in reaction to the bad- ie the house is dark. Why is that any different than what single people come home to?
Exactly!
This is precisely the same thought your husband has when he gets home.
Nothing like being married and feeling like a single man when you get home.
Is the refrigerator empty too?
Jul 27, 2005, 10:15am, Susan wrote:Older Bachelor-
I just wanted to ask, at your fortune 500 co., do you have reason to know how much people make on their jobs? I would be interested to know if you believe women make as much as men for the same job?
Here’s comes the feminist drivel …
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by DJ Bobo on Jul 27, 2005, 11:54am
Prenups are routinely thrown out in court, in the woman’s favor (citing such completely bogus reasons as “she signed it under duress”). They aren’t worth the paper that they’re printed on at this point.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Agitator on Jul 27, 2005, 12:02pm
Jul 27, 2005, 11:32am, Susan wrote: I do buy into your logic. I think kids and pregnancy do change women, probably more than men.
But the only constant in the universe is change.
I imagine the SUV doesn’t change overnight, and hopefully, with some work everyday you will change, and appreciate the sedan/moped/monster truck that is in the garage. How boring would life be if we truly had to be the exact same people we were the day we got married?
Alimony is quite adjustable. I think now a days, it is pretty rare for a woman to get it for the rest of her life, unless it is a very long term marriage, and she truly can’t take care of herself anymore. You can also get that changed if you have a financial change in your life.
I understand that if you built a business it may seem like she didn’t contribute a dime towards it, but hopefully you do realize that she probably gave you moral support, and a loving/comfortable house to come home to at the end of the day.
I find just having someone next to me saying- you can do it, just give it a shot, I’m here if you screw things up, makes everything more attainable.Anyway, I think prenups are a good thing, and if you lay out the terms of everything ahead of time you are going to be fine in a marriage.
I think a huge fear for women is that a man is going to cheat on her when she gets older- media, society etc. So if you put in an anti-cheating clause- whoever cheats, the other gets 60/40%. then women would go for it. If not, you get what you have before you come in, and everything else is 50/50%. It would encourage people to either get out before cheating occurs- which I think saves a ton of heart ache.
What we have here is a permutation of the “I want a nice guy” speech” by a woman. The problem with women is precisely that they fool men into believing that just because they have the ability to sound reasonable, they in fact act reasonably as well. Of course empirical evidence has shown over and over that nothing is farther from the truth.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by thechief on Jul 27, 2005, 12:20pm
Jul 27, 2005, 11:54am, DJ Bobo wrote:Prenups are routinely thrown out in court, in the woman’s favor (citing such completely bogus reasons as “she signed it under duress”). They aren’t worth the paper that they’re printed on at this point.
Unfortunately, he’s pretty much right about this one. They’re frequently thrown out. And even if they aren’t, the challenging of the prenup takes a long time to sort out in court…usually with the man paying BOTH legal bills while it happens.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by thechief on Jul 27, 2005, 12:27pm
Jul 27, 2005, 11:32am, Susan wrote:
I imagine the SUV doesn’t change overnight, and hopefully, with some work everyday you will change, and appreciate the sedan/moped/monster truck that is in the garage. How boring would life be if we truly had to be the exact same people we were the day we got married?
Two problems with this: First, change should come naturally, because a person wants it that way. Is it right that a man should HAVE TO change to accommodate new conditions that have evolved since his wedding day? That he should have to change to adjust to a situation that, as I said, he didn’t bargain for? More importantly, is it right that he should be legally and financially punished if he doesn’t?
Secondly, from a man’s perspective, the changes a woman goes through after marriage are almost never good. As I’ve said in a previous post, you never hear a married man saying “Boy, my wife has really changed. She’s lost ten pounds, she’s taking a gourmet cooking class, she likes having my buddies over more often and her sex drive is through the roof!” I know we can’t always have it our way, but if at least SOME changes were what we considered good changes, perhaps men wouldn’t be having this problem with modern marriage.
Another, more concrete example. Most guys like long hair. We like running our fingers through it, we like having it run over certain parts of our body during more intimate moments. Plus, we just find it more attractive. Now, look around at married women. How many have cut their hair at some point and to some degree since the wedding day? How many have traded in those long, sexy locks for a hairdo that is “just so much easier to take care of?”
As I said in yet another earlier post, if a woman is going to contractually obligate a man to be with her and only her for the rest of their lives together, I think she has a certain duty to maintain, as best she can, the traits and attributes that made him want to do so in the first place. “‘Til death do us part” can be an awfully long time when the things you enjoyed the most about a person are suddenly taken away.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by you on Jul 27, 2005, 12:35pm
Jul 25, 2005, 8:50pm, Susan wrote:
“Feminism is the radical notion that women are equal”
What most women don’t know is that feminism is designed to create division between men and women under the “pretense” of equality.
http://tinyurl.com/9zfz6
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Susan on Jul 27, 2005, 1:39pm
Agitator- Negativity negativity- I am just engaging in discussion, you can say i am just trying to “sound” logical- but it just can’t be so because I am a woman. It seems that you instantly discount what I say just because I am a woman. Grow up and understand I am just debating with you, the truth is, women and men can disagree without thinking the entire opposite sex is idiotic.
You-
and everyone else that has commented on the little “feminism radical notion”quote- Ease up, I just threw that in because of the “not making the same mistake once quote.” It isn’t my credo, just a quote.
I do believe women should be treated with equal respect and their opinions should be listened to, and not discounted simply because they are women, or don’t bring home the lion share of the money.
Sorry you automatically equate a desire for equality to a belief that we are all the same and we can do anything a man can do. Not my belief, I love men, I appreciate that they will go to war for us, even if I think war should be a very last resort, and I like the notion of women holding the keys to the armory.
I am glad they can do heavier lifting, although biologically it is easier for them. I hate for anyone to be stuck in a job they hate. I am a firm believer in having enough money to walk away from any job with a big FU, if you don’t appreciate my work. Financial security is important to not being a slave.
My dad always said- the more keys you have- (ie stuff), the more control they have over you.
If you don’t hate women, then find a good one, and make sure she has some money sense. Sadly a lot of women are insulated from understanding fiscal realities. Or they are so brainwashed by the media that they think they NEED another pair of shoes. Men have the same problem thinking they NEED a new car.
If you do find a good woman that lives up to your needs, if she doesn’t have money of her own. teach her. We all can learn a lot from everyone around us, just be willing to give of your knowledge and everyone benefits. Keep separate bank accounts, but make sure the woman doesn’t feel deprived or lorded over, and I bet you will be pleasantly surprised.
Chief
are you a divorce attorney, and can you give me any numbers on how often pre-nups are thrown out?
In my family law class, Duress was a defense, but pretty much only usable if the wedding was already planned, much expense put out, and you ask her to sign it very close to the wedding date. Or if you were an attorney or there was an extreme difference in wealth, and you did not advise the woman to get an attorney of her own. I think it is actually fairly difficult to get a pre-nup thrown out if you both have an attorney.
as to changes after marriage. I haven’t cut my hair, sadly we both put on 10 pounds- probably because we lay in bed all the time. He’s working on it with triathlon training. and when this job is over in a few weeks, I plan to get back to the gym. He still brings me flowers, and we both will be taking a cooking class soon.
As for the “so much easier to manage hair.” I came home the other day and my husband had shaved his head because it was too damn hot. I was less than pleased because I also like to run my fingers through his hair. Hair grows back, and it is fun to try out new styles.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by nameless1 on Jul 27, 2005, 1:49pm
I have heard lots of women cut their hair after they age. it is most likely because it cuts down the time they have drying it and styling it. Its just making their life alittle easier. There are so many more important things to concern yourselves with, I cant believe that was even an example of how women change after marriage…..its hysterical. I can understand if she withholds sex, or starts to treat you like crap, but a haircut? Give me a break….
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by thechief on Jul 27, 2005, 2:12pm
Susan,
Not a divorce attorney, but I am a child support worker, so I’ve seen lots of anectodal evidence. A good book on the subject is “From Courtship to Courtroom” by Jed Abraham, a divorce attorney from Illinois. I reviewed it for this board a few weeks back. It walks the reader through some of the nastier possible scenarios in a divorce, and does indeed reaffirm that a prenup is sometimes only useful as toilet paper.
Nameless1: Cutting the hair is a minor thing, certainly. I gave that example as just that, an example–of one of the many ways women change, and not for the better. Life is made up of the little things. If you took it by itself, it wouldn’t be so bad. But throw in ten, twenty, a hundred such minor changes, and pretty soon it adds up to a major change, and a man is faced with a woman who bears almost no resemblance–physically, emotionally, or intellectually–to the woman he married. And keep in mind, he’s stuck. If he files for divorce, he’ll lose half of everything he’s earned. On the other hand, if she files for the divorce….well, again, he’ll lose half of everything he’s earned. A no win scenario.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by nameless1 on Jul 27, 2005, 2:25pm
Oh, I know , it has been ingrained in my brain, that you are stuck. Finances has become a big part of what is spoken about here. I totally understand why men feel so stuck. I am beginning to get it. I understand many minor changes can be a hassle, and I totally agree with what you are saying. I would probably feel the same exact way. But you do have to expect that as we age, we may change. We may put on a few pounds after a child, or something like that…Just as men will lose their hair, or get a bigger belly. its all a part of the package. I am finding it alittle insulting though, that I am being called a troll because I wish to talk to you guys. Why is it that any form of disagreement, means that I am against men? I disagree with women all day long. Why am I a troll for discussing issues with you men? So many generalizations….I am not talking about you…Just venting I guess.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by sevens1997 on Jul 27, 2005, 2:40pm
I can’t resist. Asking a question like this with me around…how utterly foolish.
Jul 27, 2005, 10:15am, Susan wrote:I was just trying to give you guys a little hope. But almost every response I have gotten is in reaction to the bad- ie the house is dark. Why is that any different than what single people come home to?
For one thing, with single people, the house is a hell of a lot bigger. And there’s a whole lot more inside of it, too.
All wisecracks aside, though, it’s generally a much happier place.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Susan on Jul 27, 2005, 3:14pm
sevens1997
If you are happier alone, then maybe the house is a better place. To each his own really.
I was perfectly happy alone, but honestly now I’m much happier when there is someone there to make plans with.
I have found that two incomes lead to a bigger house- with someone to help shoulder the financial burden and responsibilities.
what language is your tag? creole, French, african dialect? Meaning?
Nameless1
how old are you and where do you live? if you don’t mind me asking.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by thechief on Jul 27, 2005, 3:17pm
Nameless 1 and Susan,
As I said on the other thread, neither of you are trolls. Hang in there.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Susan on Jul 27, 2005, 3:32pm
Chief-
I was reading other streams, and it talked about setting up LLC’s before marriage. I think this is a great solution.
I actually remember from an anthro class long ago- a society that had a woman’s brother be the caretaker/ male figure in the life of her children. The people were free to come and go from relationships as they pleased. There was no stigma for a child whose father wasn’t around. Of course the women were screwed if they didn’t have a brother.
As to your thoughts on open marriage/ truth that marriage probably wasn’t meant to last for so long.
It sounds like a good idea in theory, and I have debated this topic before. But what it comes down to is jealousy. Eyes wide open- pretty crappy movie, but i saw some truth in it. In reality, it is extremely hard/impossible not to get bored after 30-50 years. But the thought of my husband being so intimate with someone else- with or without the emotional bond would be torturous. Even if I was bored out of my mind. Jealousy is an ugly beast. -actually I think you covered this in a different thread. sorry.
Thanks for being open minded enough to discuss with me, it is appreciated.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by thechief on Jul 27, 2005, 3:48pm
I kind of enjoyed “Eyes Wide Shut,” if only because everybody told me it was so crappy and I therefore went in with my absolute lowest expectations. Plus, some of the scenery was nice…;).
Yeah, maybe the Green Eyed Monster would be a problem in an open marriage, but if you’re already bored and miserable, seems to me you’d have little to lose. I always was kind of in favor of the concept of Separate Vacations. Both partners get a week each year to go away wherever, and that’s entirely “don’t ask, don’t tell” time (with the provisio that both parties will use appropriate protections against STDs/unwanted pregnancies if anything does happen). I’ve heard of worse ideas for spicing up a marriage…
Oh, and on this “house is dark” business. A lot of the guys on this board seem to want it both ways. The don’t want the wife to stop working permanently after kids (or at any time in the marriage), but they don’t want to come home to a dark house with no food on the table, either. Make up your minds, guys.
Personally? I’d prefer a housewife. One that quits working once the first kid is born and then dedicates the rest of her life to raising the children and making a home for all of us. Might take a part time job after the kids are in school, but only if it works around the kids schedule—maybe substitute teaching. There are two problems with this…
1) Too many women have been told “you can have it all, you’re entitled to have it all, YOU MUST HAVE IT ALL!!” and wouldn’t be satisfied or fulfilled with the above scenario.
2) If the woman did get unhappy and decided to file the infamous no-fault divorce, the big disparity between her income and her husband’s means he would get utterly reamed in divorce court.
Again, a no-win scenario for men. And again, it’s not even the women I blame so much as the courts.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Riskbreaker on Jul 27, 2005, 4:20pm
Susan-
Want a ‘nice’ story–here’s a reprint from NiceGuy’s site:
I have retyped the WHOLE tale, making only one edit…you’ll figure it out . I apologize for the length, but please read it all…I don’t want to feel like I typed it all for naught .
This is a story for everyone-
For those married to good women, you’ll see how badly they can turn on you and ruin your life. For those thinking about marriage, let this be a case that scares you out of it. For those who are on a marriage/date strike, let this tale renew your noble stand. For those who ‘claim’ that women are blameless and that men and Niceguy’s are nothing but chronic whiners about how bad Ameriskanks are and why men here dislike them, let this tale illustrate what we have been saying for the longest. For those who ‘believe’ that justice is fair to men in this country and respects them and the old ‘innocent until proven guilty’, and that the ’sweet’ innocent female would never do ANYTHING to hurt/destroy an innocent man and father, here’s your reality check.
For the trolls and manginas…STFU.
Now, for yor education, the tale of a TRUE NiceGuy, who seems to have foreread Biomech’s excellent inspirational post:
Listen Up
Life is what you make of it. Sometimes it sucks, sometimes we make it suck. In the end, it is our choice.
My Story
Summer 1998.
I am a successful businessman earning in excess of $300,000.00 a year. I am not yet 40, have been married for almost 20 years to my high school sweet heart (long auburn hair, green eyes, after 4 kids she still has a great figure- 38/24/36). I have 4 great kids all healthy and doing well. To maintain the life style I tend to work a lot, but all in all a pretty good life. It’s funny, but a t this point I complain more about life sucking than I do now.
My wife has a minor car accident banging her head on the steering wheel. She seems a little different but the docs say she’s ok. I have a new client so I have to travel for the first time in many years to establish the contract.
Fast forward to December 29, 1998.
My wife and I get into an argument, this first in several years and I find out that she has been fooling around while I am out of town since the fall. She wants me to accept this new relationship saying she wants both. Sorry, no can do. She says she will end the other relationship but needs 10 days…
January 6th, 1999.
We have another argument and she says she can’t end the other relationship. I leave only to have her call me on the cell telling me how I will not see the kids ever again, she hates me etc… She is acting very strange. In the midst of a nervous breakdown I play tag with some cars on the highway(making sure I do not get hurt… Dumb).
8:00 p.m. – I am arrested for the first time in my life and brought to a hospital to see if I am really crazy.
10:00 p.m. – They release me. I am no danger to myself, just pissed off.
11:00 p.m. – My wife tries to get me committed. She can’t.
11:30 p.m. – My wife talks to the police who tell her that I can only be held if I am a danger to myself or someone else.
11:45 p.m. – My wife calls the police making up a story of a death threat. At this point I have been asleep for over an hour.
12:00 a.m. – I am arrested, thrown in jail, charged with uttering a death threat. I am denied legal counsel by the police. I am scared sh!tless.
January 7th
3:00 p.m. – I am released from jail. Charges dropped by the police.
January 11th
9:00 a.m. – My wife appears in court without my knowledge and gets a restraining order preventing me from seeing or talking to her and the kids. This order is not in effect until I am served.
January 12th
1:00 p.m. – After having lunch with my sons I am arrested for kidnapping and placed in jail again. The police determine that I had not been served so they have to release me.
January 13th
5:00 p.m. – My wife attacks my eldest son, then calls the police to try to have him arrested for assaulting her (she didn’t want him to testify the following day against her).
6:00 p.m. – My wife tries to have me arrested for breach of restraining order as I try to console my son at the police station.
January 14th
9:00 a.m. – I go to court to have the restraining order lifted. The judge doesn’t show as he had personal things to take care of. By now my sons have told me some of the things that were going on while I was out of town last year and the stories my wife is telling them and the two little girls about me. Things like I am going to hurt or kill them, that I am going to make them starve, etc… My 2 sons were to testify against their mother had the judge showed up.
5:00 .p.m. – My younger son is too scared to go home as his mother knows that he was going to testify. He goes to my sisters’ to sleep.
6:00 p.m. – The police arrive to arrest me for kidnapping my youngest son, They let me go when they find out he is with my sister by his choice.
January 15th
9:00 p.m. – My lawyers get the case into the Supreme Court on an emergency basis. When this first started I didn’t have a lawyer. I now have a corporate lawyer, a family lawyer and even a criminal lawyer. They are getting richer by the minute.
2:00 p.m. – I am awarded custody of all the children.
January 17th – February 20th
My wife repeatedly tries to have me arrested on false charges. She calls children’s services claiming I beat the kids’, etc… I am always cleared of all accusations. By now the police are not listening to her as much. She begins hassling the clients, telling them I am sick and the like. In name she owns all the companies and she refuses to pay the staff or me.
February 23rd
My wife tells children’s services that I am a sexual predator. She starts phoning clients telling them increasingly more damaging stories.
February 26th
9:00 a.m. – The children endure interviews by children’s services to see if their daddy is a sicko. Again I am cleared.
11:00 a.m. – I take the kids and move 3500 miles away from the mess (I tell the police and children’s services where I am going). I leave behind almost all my possessions, 4 of my 5 cars, 3 businesses, contracts worth in excess of $800,000. We take only our clothes.
During the next few months, I will declare personal bankruptcy, it took $100,00 in lost income and lawyer fees to get the kids. I have lost all three of my businesses, I have one care left(which I will lose in the bankruptcy), I have no material possessions not even a kitchen table or TV.
May 13th
I am writing this letter. I could think life sucks, but I don’t. There are times when it can but we must persevere. I have my kids, they are safe, we have our health we have started a new life. Although my wife knows where we are, other than the occasional visit by the police to investigate a complaint we don’t hear from her. My kids have adjusted incredibly, they have new friends and I am so proud of them. Reading this letter it sounds like my wife is a bad person, she is not, she is not herself. It turns out that your personality is maintained in the front of your brain and that is where she banged her head. I feel sorry for her. I may have lost money, possessions and a wife, but she lost a husband, her kids and her self.
Amazing ending. I really don’t get how he can still defend her, but this gentlemen is a true man…not just because of what he went thru, but the fact that he took it all and still sees some goodness in life. Reading this inspires me each time. Hopefully it will inspire you also.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Susan on Jul 27, 2005, 4:57pm
Riskbreaker
This story really inspires you- I appreciate that, unless you are being sarcastic and you just think he is a mangina. – sorry that came across negatively- i think i am having a hard time remaining positive when i feel continually attacked. Don’ worry I’ll persevere
It is a truly unfortunate situation, I’m sorry he had to go through it. I’m glad he was able to overcome.
He sounds very resourceful, and while he lost much, he does have his kids, who obviously need him if the wife has a brain injury and has turned psycho.
Actually I am amazed he got out from being committed. I don’t know personally, but a psychologist friend said it is very easy to get people put away. I guess it was “lucky” for him she didn’t know the right words.
Life is what you make it, I try to make it good and positive for those around me. by writing on this post I was trying to let you know that there are good women out there. I have given up on that front, because you all prefer to group us all together. This frustrates me. But I am still interested in your views.
Thanks for the positive spin for a while.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Agitator on Jul 27, 2005, 5:17pm
Jul 27, 2005, 4:57pm, Susan wrote:i think i am having a hard time remaining positive when i feel continually attacked. Don’ worry I’ll persevere
This, gentlemen, is American woman raw: she is never content with leaving men alone in even the most remote corner of the Internet to ponder life’s issues without the constant harassment that they are forced to endure on a continuing basis. Oh, no – in spite of the endless cluebatting that she receives, she arrogantly assumes her own moral superiority and thus “perseveres” in her quest to make men’s lives as miserable as her own.
This is the woman who, if she were your wife, would argue with you constantly and not let up for a moment. If you walked out of the room, she would follow you while screaming obscenities at you. If you locked yourself into a room, she would start banging on it and shriek all the more. What an appropriate example of the very lessons which this website seeks to convey!
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Susan on Jul 27, 2005, 5:31pm
alright ty and riskbreaker, if you all concur- I am out.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by you on Jul 27, 2005, 6:50pm
Jul 27, 2005, 4:57pm, Susan wrote:
Actually I am amazed he got out from being committed. I don’t know personally, but a psychologist friend said it is very easy to get people put away. I guess it was “lucky” for him she didn’t know the right words.
Love how you keep this knowledge in your back pocket in case you have to use it someday.
I bet you know the “right words”.
AW and their mastery of false accusations.
No thanks.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Cap on Jul 27, 2005, 7:11pm
Tyhigs, sorry but I can’t accept that it isn’t the legal system at fault. I understand what you are saying but just can’t buy it. People walk into courts everyday seeking ridiculous things. The system depends on honest judges that have excellent judgment and sound reasoning. Without that, society gets somewhat screwed up. Like it is with divorce right now. I am saying this from an actual experience, what could have been a reasonable divorce settlement was twisted and distorted into a travesty by a lawyer and a judge. Personally, I think there is something amiss upstairs with these people, if you know what I mean.
We can’t expect all women or men to have the greatest moral character and act honorably. That’s just how life is. I have no time for any woman of such low character that uses the screwed up legal system to benefit herself by devastating her spouse, emotionally, financially, or whatever. But as much as these women make my blood boil, I don’t think it could ever push me to the point of saying all women are no good. I just don’t think it is a reasonable statement.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Agitator on Jul 27, 2005, 7:45pm
Jul 27, 2005, 7:11pm, Cap wrote:Tyhigs, sorry but I can’t accept that it isn’t the legal system at fault. I understand what you are saying but just can’t buy it. People walk into courts everyday seeking ridiculous things. The system depends on honest judges that have excellent judgement and sound reasoning. Without that, society gets somewhat screwed up. Like it is with divorce right now. I am saying this from an actual experience, what could have been a reasonable divorce settlement was twisted and distorted into a travesty by a lawyer and a judge. Personally, I think there is something amiss upstairs with these people, if you know what I mean.
We can’t expect all women or men to have the greatest moral character and act honorably. That’s just how life is. I have no time for any woman of such low character that uses the screwed up legal system to benefit herself by devasting her spouse, emotionally, financially, or whatever. But as much as these women make my blood boil, I don’t think it could ever push me to the point of saying all women are no good. I just don’t think it is a reasonable statement.
Nobody here for a moment presumes the arrogance to stop you from choosing to jump into the sushi machine. That is a decision that you are ultimately most perfectly entitled to.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by sevens1997 on Jul 27, 2005, 7:59pm
Jul 27, 2005, 3:14pm, Susan wrote:sevens1997
If you are happier alone, then maybe the house is a better place. To each his own really.
That much I can agree with.
Quote:I have found that two incomes lead to a bigger house- with someone to help shoulder the financial burden and responsibilities.
Problem with that is if (when?) the relationship goes sour, it’s usually the woman who keeps the house, while the man gets hit with all the financial burdens. What good is that mansion going to do him when he’s living in a shanty?
Quote:what language is your tag? creole, French, african dialect? Meaning?
Japanese. The literal English translation is:
This is not love
Love is not this
It’s the first two lines of the opening theme to Excel Saga.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by A Man on Jul 28, 2005, 11:55am
Jul 27, 2005, 10:15am, Susan wrote:
AManI am not using shaming language. I just see the statistics on ‘deadbeat dads’ and think it is ridiculous. How is child support BAILING OUT, a feminist wifey?
No one, unless they were initially a bimbo after money to begin with, walks away from a marriage without a Good reason. Unless you are an idiot, you don’t make those kind of vows unless you truly hope to see them through.
Again this is why I stress that getting married too young is the problem. The thing is biologically, women need to have children younger, and I don’t think people should have children unless they are married. Children need both parents as role models- as demonstrated by so many reports.
Nobody wants a paycheck over a loving husband and father NOBODY.
Fathers paying child support are often forced to pay very unreasonable amounts. These “statistics” simply make these men look like deadbeat dads. When in reality they’re beatdead dads. That’s what is ridiculous.
Also over time an indoctrinated wife could develop a screwed perception of what a “loving” husband/father is. Long story-short: Usually they are bored in the relationship, start focusing on his imperfections no matter how small. Time goes by and now she believes she’s with this horrible man who she must protect HER kids from. And she will likely be viewed as the poor little victim. She knows once the contract was signed she is the one holding all the cards esp when it comes to children. She has an out and will use it once she’s convinced herself there is no other way.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by John Ross on Jul 28, 2005, 1:06pm
Jul 25, 2005, 8:50pm, Susan wrote:Do you really think AW are feminist wastes of space?
But just for the record, I want you to know there are some good women out there. I consider myself to be one, and the negativity of this article galls me.
No, not all AW are wastes of space. The problem is that so many are, and so many become that way after marriage. And then, the legal system encourages them to go for the jugular instead of trying to discuss things calmly and fairly.
If you are an intelligent woman, as you sound like, the negativity of the article itself should not gall you. What should gall you is that the things presented in the article are TRUE.
Some here are bitter, I agree, but the author’s article is not bitter. He’s never been married. By definition, he CAN’T have been emotionally and financially devastated from a bad marriage and subsequent divorce.
Saying he’s bitter about marriage in America to western women is like saying I’m bitter about clitoridectomies in Africa. Such a statement would be ludicrous. Being appalled and outraged would be natural, but bitterness involves personal injury (physical, emotional, or financial.)
The author describes a potential situation that happens too frequently to ignore.
The situation I and many male friends experienced is that we were in love when we married, and so were our wives. The women were like you, in that they were excited about sharing a life with their mate, starting a family, and these women seemed to be very much in love.
However, each of these women felt differently about herself after she started thinking of herself as a WIFE and not a GF or fiancee. Sometimes this was an hour after the ceremony, sometimes a few months, sometimes a year or two. But it almost always happened.
And THAT, I believe, is the problem. She doesn’t “feel right” any longer when she does the things that attracted her husband to her in the first place (a big one being frequent, enthusiastic sex).
So she quits or almost quits doing them. And the husband is dismayed and hurt. “I promise to love and cherish and support this woman for the rest of my life, and THIS is my reward?” he thinks. “What am I getting out of this union?”
And the answer, all too often, is “You’re avoiding (for now) the tremendous financial and emotional consequences of a divorce. Right now, you automatically get to see your daughter when you come home from work because she lives with you. But if you want to get back your pre-marriage sex life, you’re going to have to get a divorce, and that means seeing your daughter MUCH less frequently at the same time as you incur huge financial losses.”
This is the reality of modern marriage for the successful man.
Unlike some on this board, I DON’T think most women go INTO marriage with the cold-blooded calculation that they will bolt and take as much as they can with them. I think instead that
a) They feel differently about themselves once they become wives and mothers, and their behavior changes accordingly, always (from the man’s perspective) for the worse, and
b) They are disappointed that the husband can’t manage to afford EVERYTHING they want (which is an ever-expanding list) and
c) They come to realize that the legal system will back them up if they choose to dump their husbands but want to keep getting the ex-husband’s income.
Consider for a moment what might happen in this country if the situation were reversed:
What if it were almost unheard of for men to ever pay alimony or child support, and common for the ex-wife to have to do this?
What if normal court rulings were such that any married man could be reasonably assured of having his own net worth go UP on the day he got divorced, if he chose to file for divorce?
What if any married man could decide to ditch his wife and have HER pay for his vacations with his kids and his new girlfriend?
What if the ex-wife had to make a concerted effort to see her kids 1/10 as often as she used to, once her husband decided to kick her out of the house?
Don’t you think such conditions might result in LOTS of men eager to get married, and a marriage/baby strike by women? You’re newly married–would YOU have said “I do” if the conditions I just laid out above were present? Because that’s the set of conditions men have to operate under.
Think about it.
JR
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Agitator on Jul 28, 2005, 2:36pm
What a laughable idea, to argue with a snake. She will agree with you until the day she faces you in court. Women are conniving by nature, callous dishonesty is in their blood.
I’m not religious, but men have known this fact since ancient times. Why has modern man completely forgotten this?
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by nameless1 on Jul 28, 2005, 4:15pm
The whole story about the wife who tried to have her husband committed….I dont get what the purpose of this was. It sounds like the woman hit her head from the car accident she was in and became a loony tune. She became psychotic, and that can also happen to men if they hit their heads. I am not quite getting the point here. It is an unfortunate story, but there are so many unfortunate things going on every day on this earth. Life is full of heart ache. The guy has really really bad luck. The wife lost her mind. People lose their minds, people drop dead of heart attacks at 25 years old, people walk across the street and get run over by a car. People get serious illnesses that require thousands and thousands of dollars worth of treatment. And life goes on….
As for the whole open marriage thing, I was reading the comment about taking a vacation once a year without your partner. Right now I live with my boyfriend, and he goes to Vegas every year for the fantasy foot ball draft with his friends. I dont like it, but its something I have accepted, and something that I am sure will continue on even after we get married. I have to accept it. I think time apart is a good thing. Susan, if you are still here, I am 31 years old….
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Susan on Jul 28, 2005, 4:59pm
JR
Gall was the wrong word choice- Sadden was closer to my original feeling, but I thought it sounded condescending.
In response to your points
a) Yes I agree women feel differently when they are wives and mothers. I do not feel differently as a wife- possibly due to the possibility of divorce and that I don’t feel that I need my husband financially, nor he I. I want to be with him. He is still romantic and as funny and kind as the day we married. Not much has changed. When people Need someone else, things are much more complicated.
- I feel that if either of us were unhappy, we would work to fix it, but if it didn’t work ie we changed too much for the bad- then we could end it, without too much mess. We have different interests in material things, so if we split, he’d get his instruments and I’d get my art. I hope we wouldn’t be so bitter as to intentional take or destroy the few possessions that are important to the other. I guess it helps that I came into the relationship with a little more net worth, and he came in with the steady job, neither feels beholden to the other.
Of course I know my feelings on that will change when we have kids.
That is one of the reasons I think it is important to wait to have kids even after you are married. One of the men here was saying kids are the only reason to get married. But I advocate waiting, so you can make sure that you and your husband are going to make it as a couple first.
For the record, I still believe pre-nups are the way to go if you are worried about financials. Even if you are worried about access to your kids.
I also think it is understandable for a woman to feel differently after she has had kids. i wonder if men are able to look at their wives the same, knowing that a kid came out of “there.” Or if the sensations are the same?
I also think women are much more self conscious about their bodies than men could ever really grasp. We really do have serious self confidence issues with this- it is just hammered into us from an early age. If you get stretch marks, saggy skin, put on a little weight. You will not feel sexy. It would take a lot of caring, loving and attention from a man to make a woman think he is still attracted to her. I mean A LOT. I bet even if she did get back down to her original size without any signs of the pregnancy the fear would still be there. Add in breast feeding and all the extra demands on her time, and it is no even a point of contention for most people that children REALLY change things.
My plan to combat this- since we can talk all we want, but action makes a difference. 1 hour a day set aside to spend solely with my husband.
A friend of mine in high school’s parents used to sit out back and have a drink every night when his dad came home from work. The kids were not allowed to interrupt PERIOD. I think this is a great plan, and i hope it works in the future.
b) Expanding list of things wanted… Hmmm, well everybody wants something.
For us, we discuss if there is anything big we want and we decide if it is a worthwhile purchase. I’m in charge of whatever money is left over after all the bills and mortgage is paid, we try to save as much as we can, but if we want something, we buy it. I am actually the more fiscally conservative and responsible one, so my husband doesn’t have to worry so much about me. I have never been a fashionista, so I don’t buy tons of clothes etc. I plan for us to own real estate and have income producing rental properties.
Having a frank and open discussion about finances is IMPERATIVE before marriage.
****Money problems will end a marriage as many times as infidelity.*****
To all the men out there- Both of you need to pull out all your credit card bills and loans and be forthright if a marriage is going to work.
I started taking care of my husbands finances about 2 months into our relationship. He told me he didn’t like dealing with it. So I thought that meant he didn’t like the drudgery of writing checks and keeping up with it. I came to find out he didn’t even open his bills for months at a time, I still have no idea how his power electricity and such hadn’t been shut off.
Then i realized he carried a balance- albeit not outrageous amounts on three credit cards, and had a loan. And I honestly about bolted right there. I left his place that night and felt like I had been punched in the stomach.
No way was I going to link myself to a financial train wreck. But he was honestly willing to let me figure it out for him, and when he stopped buying 10-15 cd’s a month, and started tracking his spending, it made a huge difference.
So the point of the story is. you don’t necessarily have to write someone off if they are a little shaky financially. as long as they want and take help willingly.
c) If I were the primary bread winner, and had to pay child support and alimony- yes that would suck- but if i had a house husband, who raised the children, and was less capable of taking care of himself because he had dedicated years of his life taking care of me/my kids, to be fair I would feel that I owed them something.
While there are statutory limits/guidelines on these numbers, ultimately it is the judges decision how much has to be paid. There is a minimum required, but in Virginia it is like $170-270$ as I remember.-it’s been 3 years since fam law though, so I can’t state conclusively that this is the amount. I remember being amazed that it was so low. It was much less than you could take care of a child with. But the courts recognize that you can’t get blood from a turnip.
It does suck that it is so hard to see your kids. I wish everyone could just live in the same neighborhood and have more access to the children. I know this is rarely possible, and that is really disruptive for a kid to switch every week to have equal time. One solution which is pretty unrealistic is to have a house where the kids stay all the time, and the parents rotate out.
Really I don’t think women’s net worth goes up after a divorce. I remember reading about how women are almost always worse off. I would have to find some supporting evidence on this. But I think unless the couple is very wealthy, women do come out worse.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Susan on Jul 28, 2005, 5:12pm
nameless- I’m still here.
I am all for people have their own time, and own vacations. But if you _Knew_, your boyfriend/husband was going off to sleep with other people. Even if you were horrifically bored and had the same opportunity, could you handle it? Jealousy is a nasty monster.
You- get a grip- I have no clue what the words are. Severe Paranoia is a sign of mental incapacity…
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Agitator on Jul 28, 2005, 5:17pm
Quote:I also think women are much more self conscious about their bodies than men could ever really grasp. We really do have serious self confidence issues with this- it is just hammered into us from an early age.
Notice the endless victim tactics.
Quote:
If you get stretch marks, saggy skin, put on a little weight. You will not feel sexy. It would take a lot of caring, loving and attention from a man to make a woman think he is still attracted to her. I mean A LOT.
Notice the endless entitlement.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by you on Jul 28, 2005, 6:40pm
Jul 28, 2005, 5:12pm, Susan wrote:nameless- I’m still here.
I am all for people have their own time, and own vacations. But if you _Knew_, your boyfriend/husband was going off to sleep with other people. Even if you were horrifically bored and had the same opportunity, could you handle it? Jealousy is a nasty monster.
You- get a grip- I have no clue what the words are. Severe Paranoia is a sign of mental incapacity…
thanks for shaming me
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Susan on Jul 28, 2005, 7:10pm
Agitator and You-
For people who don’t like Dr. Phil and Oprah, or self help books, you sure do spout a lot of victim, entitlement, shaming doctrine.
Did I say body image stuff was hammered in by Men? No.
All I was doing was addressing why things change after children. Not blaming men for goodness sakes. I was just saying it would take a kind and compassionate man to put up with women who are having those kind of doubts. Not saying we are entitled to anything.
I’m just talking, not persecuting you.
You- Pot this is kettle. “I’m sure you know those words and will keep them in your back pocket crap.” Is that an attempt to shame me?
Contribute something useful, or go live in a cave, I find your Dr. Phil pop psychoanalysis trite, and disingenuous.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Agitator on Jul 28, 2005, 7:28pm
Jul 28, 2005, 7:10pm, Susan wrote:Did I say body image stuff was hammered in by Men? No.
All I was doing was addressing why things change after children. Not blaming men for goodness sakes.
Victim tactic = not taking responsibility for your own actions. This has nothing to do with the perpetrator and everything to do with rejecting responsibility while still clammoring for “equality.”
Quote:
I was just saying it would take a kind and compassionate man to put up with women who are having those kind of doubts. Not saying we are entitled to anything.
I’m just talking, not persecuting you.
And yet women have completely forgotten their own compassion when it comes to supporting men’s issues. You want to have your cake and to eat it also.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Susan on Jul 28, 2005, 7:58pm
Agitator, what men’s issues do you need help with? It’s mighty hard to help people that are constantly attacking and on the offensive. But if you show me why helping you doesn’t hurt me, I am happy to help. Call me selfish- or see the truth that everyone puts their own interest first.
(Please stop coming back with acidic comments, or I will just stop engaging.)
Just as when men decided to let women vote, the women showed the men that they weren’t loosing power, it didn’t actually hurt them. It helped women without hurting men.
If you think politicians pander to women now because they vote in a block- well then do something about it. Get your men to the polls and make your voices heard. Men’s unwillingness to effectuate change by not voting is not women’s fault. Combat fire with fire, and get your own gang that support men’s issues.
2) How is it, that if i say “it is a woman’s own body issues that can be a big stumbling block -which is causing the problem” -me not taking responsibility? Women on the whole have body issues, I’m just stating the truth as I know it. Compassion is what we all need more of. I will help you if I can, I hope it is by doing more than just giving you a target to aim for.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Agitator on Jul 28, 2005, 8:07pm
Jul 28, 2005, 7:58pm, Susan wrote:
Just as when men decided to let women vote, the women showed the men that they weren’t loosing power, it didn’t actually hurt them. It helped women without hurting men.If you think politicians pander to women now because they vote in a block- well then do something about it.
Get your men to the polls and make your voices heard. Men’s unwillingness to effectuate change by not voting is not women’s fault. Combat fire with fire, and get your own gang that support men’s issues.
Wrong. As long as women comprise the majority of the populace (51+% which thanks to nature is going to remain unless it’s altered artificially) and as long as they vote as a bloc (while men – free thinkers of society – are more likely to disagree with each other), politicians will pander to women to advance their own careers and create more and more misandrist laws. I cannot help that. What I can do however is reject marriage and reject the status quo by going my own way, as a form of protest. Incidentally, that is precisely what I am doing and precisely what sites such as this ultimately advocate.
Quote: 2) How is it, that if i say “it is a woman’s own body issues that can be a big stumbling block -which is causing the problem” -me not taking responsibility? Women on the whole have body issues, I’m just stating the truth as I know it.
Compassion is what we all need more of. I will help you if I can, I hope it is by doing more than just giving you a target to aim for.
You keep blatantly missing the very simple point and I don’t really feel like going in circles on this.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Ty on Jul 28, 2005, 8:10pm
Jul 28, 2005, 7:58pm, Susan wrote:
Just as when men decided to let women vote, the women showed the men that they weren’t loosing power, it didn’t actually hurt them. It helped women without hurting men.
If you think politicians pander to women now because they vote in a block- well then do something about it. Get your men to the polls and make your voices heard. Men’s unwillingness to effectuate change by not voting is not women’s fault. Combat fire with fire, and get your own gang that support men’s issues.
The fact of the matter is that women outnumber men in western societies due to a number of reasons (wars, blue collar jobs, longevity, etc). Women comprise 52-56% of the voters, depending on the country. As such, even if every man voted one way, men would still be in the minority. Also, men aren’t herd animals. We are individuals who don’t always depend on the values/opinions of other men. Because of this, men will never be able to vote as block like women do.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by you on Jul 28, 2005, 8:27pm
Jul 28, 2005, 7:10pm, Susan wrote:Agitator and You-
For people who don’t like Dr. Phil and Oprah, or self help books, you sure do spout a lot of victim, entitlement, shaming doctrine.You- Pot this is kettle. “I’m sure you know those words and will keep them in your back pocket crap.” Is that an attempt to shame me?
Contribute something useful, or go live in a cave, I find your Dr. Phil pop psychoanalysis trite, and disingenuous.
Female Boss
You’ve completely lost me, love.
Dr Phil, Oprah, self-help books? This is the domain of mouthy AW.
Yawn
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Susan on Jul 28, 2005, 8:32pm
Aww -You- darlin’
we are finally in agreement
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Susan on Jul 28, 2005, 8:48pm
I am not very knowledgeable about voting statistics. But just for arguments sake, If women really are Herd Animals, and they control voting. why is George Bush president?
Let’s go on two basic assumptions- vast generalizations to be sure… but see if you buy this at all.
1)Women’s Issue- Abortion
2)Women are Pro-Choice because it affects their bodies?
Why would they elect Bush, with the knowledge that he in all probability gets to appoint 1-3 new supreme ct justices? Bush being a conservative that panders to evangelical christian… highly unlikely he will appoint someone in line with keeping Abortion legal?
Why would women- herd animals that you believe us to be, put Bush back in the oval office?
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by DeJay on Jul 28, 2005, 8:51pm
Jul 26, 2005, 7:04pm, Susan wrote:Older Bachelor- Yes, I am overgeneralizing posters on this sight, this entire sight is dedicated to sweeping generalizations. Mostly about women/marriage and how they can ruin your life, that is why I even bothered to post at all.
Susan,
First and foremost, let me say this, If it were women being screwed in the probate courts system, there would be a mother’s rights movement, not a father’s rights movement. If people were being equally mistreated, there would be a gender neutral, grass roots movement. There is not. The father’s rights movement, and now this impending “marriage strike” is not a cause, it is a result, and it is there for a reason. That alone invalidates any argument to the contrary regarding the marriage situation. This ever growing anger among men is not the result of some meeting one night at the evil menz club, it is the result of a long list of injustice heaped upon them. Hell, to be honest, I am surprised that it has taken this long.
Let me also say this. I am very educated in this area. I have been a member of the father’s rights movement. I have been thru the system and watched, with disbelief, an (cheating) ex-wife and a bias court system treat me like a criminal, destroy my life and run us both into bankruptcy.
I am also remarried, so yes, I agree that there are some truly great women out there. I found one, but they are rare today not because they are evil, but because they are as clueless as many men were during the women’s movement and the fight for employment rights. It took a great leap of faith to jump into it again. In my case, I made the right decision, but that was based on, among many other things, the way she treated her ex husband when she, like most women, had the opportunity to ruin him. However, even with this wonderful wife I have, there is still the injustice that exists, there is still that sword of Damocles hanging over mine, and every man’s head. There is still the injustice of a kangaroo court and yes, the many women and women’s groups that not only support it, but drive it.
Trust me, there were a lot of things in my life I would have rather been doing then dealing with this sh*t, but when does it stop, when do men stand up and defend themselves? When do guys finally say, “enough is enough?” Trust me also in that I still do believe strongly in marriage. I would love to be able to come to this board and tell these young guys that marriage is a good deal for them, but I can’t. The risk is just too high for a young man, especially when 50% of marriage end in divorce, when women initiate upwards of 70% of them, when men who are divorced are treated the way they are.
Now you can argue the ways to change things, you can argue what needs to be changed first, but to try to dismiss the anger, the many fears or the realities that guys face is going to fall on deaf ears, or at the very least, cause argument. Many know too much, and many are past the point of reconciliation.
This is not their fault. This is not their doing. The only crime that any of them have committed in this situation is to be born male…and just like the women’s movement, there are legitimate issues that need to be addressed and changed before men will have equality enough to want to, once again, seek out marriage as one of their life’s goals.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Agitator on Jul 28, 2005, 8:52pm
Because women are so obsessed with security that they will readily give up any and all of their – and men’s – liberty for it. Because Bush had the most clear-cut message on how he was going to deal with terrorism, women voted for him. It is as simple as that.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by crella on Jul 28, 2005, 9:24pm
“then you both deserve 50% if it goes sour. “
Regardless of the actual input from each partner?
“She is a single parent dealing with the expensive prospect of raising a child alone. Child support is not some gift, it is a man taking care of his responsibility- he was there for the creation of the child. He should be a man and provide for it.”
I’ve raised a child, he’s 22. For the first few years, they need very little. Public school is free, kids clothing is not expensive…later on you have braces and thing like that but…the current trend in law of awarding hundreds, sometimes thousands of dollars a month in child support is skewed. There is no accountabilty, no reporting required on how the money is used. What guarantee is there that the money is used for the child exclusively? None.
As for the struggle of being a single mother, women should think of how tough it’s going to be when they initiate the divorce, as 70% do…for reasons like ‘he just doesn’t do it for me anymore’. ‘Be a man and provide for it’…I think that if a woman kicks a man to the curb out of boredom she’s made her decision…the ‘perks’ that went with him should evaporate too.
‘ I am still at work at 10:45pm, when I would much prefer to be at home with my husband.’
Then do it. You can regulate your own hours to a degree, can’t you?
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Snakey on Jul 29, 2005, 9:56am
Jul 27, 2005, 1:39pm, Susan wrote:
You-
and everyone else that has commented on the little “feminism radical notion”quote- Ease up, I just threw that in because of the “not making the same mistake once quote.” It isn’t my credo, just a quote.
So, do you stand by the quotes assertion to do you abandon it now, for the sake of this argument? It’s a little like the “I was just kidding” defence women/feminists pull when you take them to task on their lunacy. Women are more than equal. They have, undeservingly, been placed on a pedestal and have all of life’s opportunities open for them, with the added bonus escape clause of getting a pet sucker to provide and dropping out of the work place. Privilege-wise, western women have more than any other group in history of humanity. On the backs of men, of course. We are fed up. We are not taking it any more, “it” manifesting most visibly in marriage, or The Trap, as some of us call us. I appreciate you coming here to “offer us hope”, but we have our own, and it has nothing to do with you, or any western woman. That is something AWs are simply going to have to get used to, because we are a long, long way from coming back to the bargaining table. Fool me once, etc.
Quote:I do believe women should be treated with equal respect and their opinions should be listened to, and not discounted simply because they are women, or don’t bring home the lion share of the money.
I beg to differ here. Respect is something earned, not something a person is automatically entitled to. Men understand this. Women don’t.
Quote:Sorry you automatically equate a desire for equality to a belief that we are all the same and we can do anything a man can do. Not my belief, I love men, I appreciate that they will go to war for us, even if I think war should be a very last resort, and I like the notion of women holding the keys to the armory.
That’s not equality, see. You get to vote, we get the draft. Not equal. What would you rather, give up the vote, or face going overseas and getting shot for the folk back home’s right to vote, and buy shoes, etc? That would be a balance of rights and responsibilities, otherwise known as EQUALITY. But that isn’t what you want as you know damn well … you want privelege. You want selective equality. We must have women CEOs in equal numbers … but not garbage collectors, builders, hard laborers … jobs where some get hurt, maimed, killed. But CEOs! Yes, by God, we need those women CEOs.
Quote:If you don’t hate women, then find a good one, and make sure she has some money sense.
Who the hell are you, a feminist, to be giving men advice on how to run their lives? I would rather hump a rattlesnake, thank you. You do not understand what life is like for us because you are not interested. You came here to lecture, to “give us hope” as you said, not to understand our point of view. But I don’t ‘hate women’, women are simply irrelevant to my life. I do not need, want or seek their approval and have found, once preconceived notions are discovered to be easily lived without, that life is a whole whole lot easier without women around trying to mold me into her pet rotwheiller.
Quote:Sadly a lot of women are insulated from understanding fiscal realities. Or they are so brainwashed by the media that they think they NEED another pair of shoes. Men have the same problem thinking they NEED a new car.
The simplicity of your understanding and analogies begs the question again, what lofty perch are you descending from to advise men on the finer points of human relations? You clearly see our concerns as rather trivial when it boils down to it, admitting fault in women only so far as they might like one too many pairs of shoes. But even that concession is balanced by us men being just as bad, worse actually, liking (more expensive) cars.
You are here to defend your kind so you must answer for them. Defend alimony. Defend false allegations of rape and sexual harrassment turning our working lives into hell. Defend affirmative action. Defend the drugging of boys in schools into passive drones with forgeries like ADD. Defend 40 million babies killed with abortions. Defend single-mother homes, and the criminals who come from them (including rapists.) Defend any of the shit Dworkin said about how all us men are rapists. This is feminism talking. You are a self proclaimed feminist. These are your leaders. Defend them if you want to defend women, because all this was done in your name.
Quote:If you do find a good woman that lives up to your needs, if she doesn’t have money of her own. teach her. We all can learn a lot from everyone around us, just be willing to give of your knowledge and everyone benefits. Keep separate bank accounts, but make sure the woman doesn’t feel deprived or lorded over, and I bet you will be pleasantly surprised.
My needs are freedom, and that is the one thing all women want from me. You do not understand what we are up against, you do not understand yourself or your fellow women. You do not know quite how caustic society has become for us … you have never needed to understand. I am a young man who grew through the education system, and it was CAUSTIC, you understand? But you don’t, and I am not posting this for you, my dear, but for the other men here. Rest assured, the venom is deep, far, and wide, and the family court is where they bite the deepest. That’s where they make us into slaves, using laws made by FEMINISTS, so our ex-wives who stole our children, our lives and our souls, can spend the rest of their dainty lives in comfort, while we work three jobs just to survive on tinned food, hoping to see our kids once a month until she moves away, still collecting our checks. Many drop out and kill themselves, which is what feminists prefer to us congregating into a movement or consciousness awakened. Too bad. We’re here now, we’re growing by the day and the goddamn party is over.
We start by boycotting marriage.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Riskbreaker on Jul 29, 2005, 10:49pm
Snakey-
I said the same things you said to her in another thread…let her have her fresh new marriage. I expect her hubby will be a member here soon–and he’ll give us the MALE side of the marriage with her.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Lee on Jul 29, 2005, 11:06pm
Jul 26, 2005, 1:43am, Michael wrote:
This is one of the saddest things I’ve ever read. Clearly, you are of better than average intellect, though I can’t claim to know anything about you beyond that. It seems to me, however, that someone who has good genes to contribute to the long biological chain of life, and refuses to – has no reason to continue breathing.
Most who share the opinion don’t live their lives to fulfill others expectations, which is clearly what your reply strongly suggests.
Quote:The cycle of life; the line of your ancestors reaching back into time immemorial; that’s half of why you exist. The other half is your own part in the chain that continues past you into the next generations. So, if you’re not going to be a part of that, you’re wasting oxygen, in my view.
Fine. Leave us who don’t wasted money and time on marriage and children alone, then.
Quote:That isn’t to say that there aren’t other purposes for people.
We are not here to have a ‘purpose’ that you approve of or like.
Those who share that opinion of the scam that is the high-priced college education/usurious student loans/girlfriend/engagement/stressfull job with long hours/marriage/cavernous mortgage/2 expensive, boring but sensible cars/2.3 children/save 250k for their education/work until death treadmill, don’t live for others.
We live for ourselves, our happiness, our enjoyment, our enrichment.
Read anything by Ayn Rand.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Susan22 on Jul 30, 2005, 2:13am
I would love to see you back here in 50 years still happily married to show you how wrong you will be, but I imagine you will be dead by then as your hatred turns cancerous and your bodies deteriorate from the anger within.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Lee on Jul 30, 2005, 2:20am
Jul 30, 2005, 2:13am, Susan22 wrote:I would love to see you back here in 50 years still happily married to show you how wrong you will be, but I imagine you will be dead by then as your hatred turns cancerous and your bodies deteriorate from the anger within.
What a hateful attitude you have, to imagine or wish cancer upon any other human being.
Just because you may have a successful marriage doesn’t mean that on the average most, or even half, of the populace does as well.
I live in California, and the current divorce rate for 2004 is 87%. When I stand to lose more money, time, energy and income than a woman who marries, odds of 87% failure are simply stupid for me to consider entering into marriage.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Snakey on Jul 30, 2005, 2:26am
Jul 26, 2005, 1:43am, Michael wrote:
Jul 25, 2005, 11:07pm, OlderBachelor wrote:There is a better way. There is a way out of the “House in the ‘Burbs/Two Car/Married with 2.5 kids/Dog” way of life. The system wants you encased in that straightjacket because it makes you much easier to control. Don’t play. Don’t get married, don’t have kids. You have no moral obligation to procreate. Live a life of adventure.
This is one of the saddest things I’ve ever read. Clearly, you are of better than average intellect, though I can’t claim to know anything about you beyond that. It seems to me, however, that someone who has good genes to contribute to the long biological chain of life, and refuses to – has no reason to continue breathing.
The cycle of life; the line of your ancestors reaching back into time immemorial; that’s half of why you exist. The other half is your own part in the chain that continues past you into the next generations. So, if you’re not going to be a part of that, you’re wasting oxygen, in my view.
That isn’t to say that there aren’t other purposes for people. Some of the greatest men who’ve ever lived never had children, sadly, but there are other things one can leave behind.
Too bad. A system that makes it undesirable, even perilous, to perpetuate itself does not deserve to be perpetuated. Besides, the world is full of people and not about to run out now. A man can do plenty to contribute to the betterment of the world without adding more mouths to feed. Your post is nonsense.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Susan22 on Jul 30, 2005, 2:26am
Nope just stating the facts that anger eats you up.
Compared to the inordinate amount of love I have sensed here, yes I am really out of touch
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Snakey on Jul 30, 2005, 2:28am
Jul 30, 2005, 2:13am, Susan22 wrote:I would love to see you back here in 50 years still happily married to show you how wrong you will be, but I imagine you will be dead by then as your hatred turns cancerous and your bodies deteriorate from the anger within.
You will be an unfulfilled bitter divorcee then. Rich, yes, having chewed through probably 2 husbands before your looks faded. But you’ll find money isn’t everything once you are no longer desirable. Your cats will have the best cuisine, but you will be bitter, lonely and old. Men your age will still be free. Younger women are fine with older men, especially those with money. It doesn’t work the other way around.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Susan22 on Jul 30, 2005, 2:34am
Nope, I don’t like cats, and I will be off on an adventure somewhere.
I still need to see Antarctica. Hey maybe I can stop by the far east and see how all the ex-pat relationships are going.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by TyHigs on Jul 30, 2005, 2:36am
Jul 30, 2005, 2:28am, Snakey wrote:
Jul 30, 2005, 2:13am, Susan22 wrote:I would love to see you back here in 50 years still happily married to show you how wrong you will be, but I imagine you will be dead by then as your hatred turns cancerous and your bodies deteriorate from the anger within.You will be an unfulfilled bitter divorcee then. Rich, yes, having chewed through probably 2 husbands before your looks faded. But you’ll find money isn’t everything once you are no longer desriable. Your cats will have the best cuisine, but you will be bitter, lonely and old. Men your age will still be free. Younger women are fine with older men, especially those with money. It doesn’t work the other way around.
You forgot that she’s almost 30 already. So that only leaves her 10-12 yrs.
Anyway, I predict this marriage will last less than 12 yrs. She will want total control, and he wont let her, or she will gain total control, and she wont respect him because of it. Either way, she will walk away with more than 50% plus child support, and feel she is entitled to it.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Snakey on Jul 30, 2005, 2:38am
Jul 30, 2005, 2:36am, TyHigs wrote:
Jul 30, 2005, 2:28am, Snakey wrote:You will be an unfulfilled bitter divorcee then. Rich, yes, having chewed through probably 2 husbands before your looks faded. But you’ll find money isn’t everything once you are no longer desriable. Your cats will have the best cuisine, but you will be bitter, lonely and old. Men your age will still be free. Younger women are fine with older men, especially those with money. It doesn’t work the other way around.
You forgot that she’s almost 30 already. So that only leaves her 10-12 yrs.
Anyway, I predict this marriage will last less than 12 yrs. She will want total control, and he wont let her, or she will gain total control, and she wont respect him because of it. Either way, she will walk away with more than 50% plus child support, and feel she is entitled to it.
30, eh? In my book, that’s already gone. 30 is well past the prime of looks … hell, 25 is when they start deteriorating, when gravity and cellulite make an appearance. Women have not much of a shelf life. They never see the day coming. That’s one of the things I love, how the balance of power shifts to men at age 25.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Susan22 on Jul 30, 2005, 2:44am
Yeah, how’s that bald spot coming boys?
Would it make it easier on you if i was ugly? would you feel some superiority?
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Susan22 on Jul 30, 2005, 2:46am
oh snakey,
I was planning on coming after you since you wanted to hump me as much as a rattlesnake. i wanted to steal your soul and drain your bank account dam’ I’ve missed my chance.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Snakey on Jul 30, 2005, 2:47am
Jul 30, 2005, 2:44am, Susan22 wrote:Yeah, how’s that bald spot coming boys?
Would it make it easier on you if i was ugly? would you feel some superiority?
Fine. Younger women are more concerned about my wallet than my bald spot, in fact the non-western world is teeming with young women looking for older men to marry, so my bald spot (as well as being a sign of virility) is like a badge of suitability.
How are those droopy boobs, the doughy cellulite thighs, that tick-tick-tick biological clock? You are already past your prime. I’m approaching mine and it will last 30 years. Want to trade lives?
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Snakey on Jul 30, 2005, 2:48am
Jul 30, 2005, 2:46am, Susan22 wrote:oh snakey,
I was planning on coming after you since you wanted to hump me as much as a rattlesnake.
i wanted to steal your soul and drain your bank account
dam’ I’ve missed my chance.
Here we see the true colors, guys. Don’t you feel sorry for the poor bastard who had to marry this? Thanks for stopping by, Susan, to prove our point.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Susan22 on Jul 30, 2005, 2:52am
No thanks,
you see the answer to that tick tick tick is that I am perfectly capable of having kids anytime i want. I’ve got a partner to help me out with it.
the droop and cellulite- no one looks forward to it, but what can you do other than work out and hope for the best?
Anyway, have a good night, I’m off. Thanks for the entertainment.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by susan22 on Jul 30, 2005, 2:53am
Yes I really pity a man who has to deal with a woman with a sense of humor, poor poor guy
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Susan22 on Jul 30, 2005, 2:56am
snakey pooh, give yourself a little more credit- you don’t have to look for a woman that is just after your wallet, I bet you can find someone that likes you for a deeper reason.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Snakey on Jul 30, 2005, 2:58am
Jul 30, 2005, 2:56am, Susan22 wrote:snakey pooh, give yourself a little more credit- you don’t have to look for a woman that is just after your wallet, I bet you can find someone that likes you for a deeper reason.
Actually you’re right, there is plenty about me other than my wallet, but to have an attempted insult coming from some anonymous 30 year old feminist, I didn’t feel inclined to convince you otherwise. You are irrelevant to me in every way, other than as a good vehicle to demonstrate to my fellow man how American women are not worth their time.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Riskbreaker on Jul 30, 2005, 4:51am
you see the answer to that tick tick tick is that I am perfectly capable of having kids anytime i want. I’ve got a partner to help me out with it.
*Question:what if your partner doesn’t want kids when YOU do? Then what? Will you conceded or go along with what YOU want to do?
the droop and cellulite- no one looks forward to it, but what can you do other than work out and hope for the best?
*Susan, in the words of Lil’ Flip-GAME OVER!!-
nomarriage
It’s not a question of what’s “OK” or not ok. Nobody gives a shit if it’s fair or not. The point is, women in their 30’s, who are career oriented, are extremely UN-desirable to most men, as wives. Those women are getting more and more undesirable as the years pass…in fact by about 35 they are more or less out of the running completely.
Men, on the other hand, are at their peak of desirability, as potential husbands, at 35, and they remain at that peak for many years. A 40 year old guy who is a decent success can ALWAYS find a 30 yr old woman who would jump at the chance to grab him.
99.9% of the single women in this country are not even marriageable.
Take away the women beyond the marriageable age (over 30).
Take away the fat women.
Take away the ugly women.
Take away the psycho Zoloft / Prozac women.
Take away the raped women.
Take away the women with STDs / HIV.
Take away the women who can’t cook.
Take away the women who already have kids.
And you’ve eliminated 99.9% of the single women in this country.
“The appropriate age for marriage is around eighteen for girls and thirty-seven for men.”
Aristotle
“An archaeologist is best husband a woman can have: the older she gets, the more interested he is in her.”
Agatha Christie
“Women are like elephants. Everyone likes to look at them but no-one likes to have to keep one.”
WC Fields
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Agitator on Jul 30, 2005, 5:39am
when does this woman get the fucking point??
She is not welcome here.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Agitator on Jul 30, 2005, 6:12am
Wars are won and lost at the hard line.
There is never touchy-feely involved in victory, only in the fake march of the victor.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Chris Key on Jul 30, 2005, 6:26am
Jul 28, 2005, 7:58pm, Susan wrote:Just as when men decided to let women vote, the women showed the men that they weren’t loosing power, it didn’t actually hurt them. It helped women without hurting men.
The appointment of suffrage to all women was the period in which females became the majority; as 52% of the population happens to be at the present and was the case in the early 20th century.
The inventions that were made by men (95% of inventions have been invented by men) allowed society to advance at rapid rates; until the Great Depression and the Two World Wars of the 20th Century.
The introduction of women’s suffrage to all women was the time in which the politicians were forced to adjust their policies to support a more socialist-totalitarian-fascist system; the very system that remains at the present.
The socialist-totalitarian-fascist system that has drained society of it’s most valuable resources at an unsustainable rate; leading to a high amount of unemployment, a poor education system, a dysfunctional workforce, the devaluing of the family unit and a high crime rate.
If you do not believe that women’s suffrage has been detrimental to society then you need to understand that socialist societies CANNOT succeed, they never have and they never will; therefore it’s no wonder that the current socialist society has been degrading at an exponential rate over the last 80 years.
Jul 28, 2005, 7:58pm, Susan wrote:If you think politicians pander to women now because they vote in a block- well then do something about it.
Get your men to the polls and make your voices heard. Men’s unwillingness to effectuate change by not voting is not women’s fault. Combat fire with fire, and get your own gang that support men’s issues.
Considering that 52-56% of the population happen to be female, and the female voting base outnumbers the male voting base by 11%; the males cannot obtain their rights through the act of voting as males are outnumbered.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Agitator on Jul 30, 2005, 6:47am
“Voting..” will become the last battle cry of the century.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by TyHigs on Jul 30, 2005, 11:23am
Jul 30, 2005, 5:39am, Agitator wrote:when does this woman get the f**king point??
She is not welcome here.
Because modern women are convinced that they are always right, they will never back down from a logical argument. In real life, they resort to emotional tactics in order to win. This has lead them to be extremely argumentative. It isnt simply about expressing their opinions. It is about changing people’s minds to conform with their (feminist-politically correct) views, because after all, a woman is never wrong. This would also mean that AW are unusually narcissistic.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by The Author on Jul 30, 2005, 12:08pm
> One comment on the original article. The author said something about kids giving a woman leverage and she was lucky to get child support till age 18.
Not sure what you’re reading, but my essay does not even CONTAIN the phrase “child support”.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by HappilySingle on Jul 30, 2005, 12:55pm
Jul 29, 2005, 11:06pm, Lee wrote:We are not here to have a ‘purpose’ that you approve of or like.
Those who share that opinion of the scam that is the high-priced college education/usurious student loans/girlfriend/engagement/stressfull job with long hours/marriage/cavernous mortgage/2 expensive, boring but sensible cars/2.3 children/save 250k for their education/work until death treadmill, don’t live for others.
We live for ourselves, our happiness, our enjoyment, our enrichment.
Read anything by Ayn Rand.
One has to wonder why feminists, who claim to want equality, don’t celebrate the writings of Rand. She’s a woman, her major novels all have strong female lead characters, and most of the male characters are dolts.
Is it perhaps because the heroines in her novels act appropriately and take responsibility for their actions, rather than blaming everything on others?
If I could meet a woman like Dagny Taggart, I’d seriously reconsider my commitment to bachelorhood. Unfortunately, most of the women I know are Lillian Reardens.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by khankrumthebulgar on Jul 30, 2005, 1:39pm
Susan’s arguments are too laughable to not pass up the chance to comment on. I spoke last week to my first wife inquiring as to how the 3 youngest at home were doing? She started in on me about how my 13 year old was a worthless lazy Sh*t, and was always fighting with his younger brother.
That only our daughters were helpful, how she was in pain, had hemorrhoids, lack of energy etc. Complaints for the first time were surfacing about Mr. Wonderful her current Husband. Who she left me for incidentally. I could have made some comments but didn’t. You see it is her choices in life that she fails to connect the dots with.
I offered to take the two boys off her hands and still pay full child support for. She said “Oh No it Would damage their self esteem”!!! This is a 48 year old Woman stuck in the 80s thinking having listened to Dr. Phil and Orca Winfrey. She sarcastically said “Aren’t you going to say I told you so”? I responded ” Why should I? I am not entitled to an opinion, besides it would not help the situation. Why pour gasoline on a fire?” She needs to deal with the consequences of her decision. She never learns from her lessons.
And it is all about her feelings. Nothing has changed another reminder of why I am glad to be no longer with her. I have done it the traditional way twice. Ice Queen or Drama Queen. I am worn out trying to please Women, no matter what I do it was always wrong. I have simply quit trying. Women don’t know what they want themselves. They are driven by emotion not reason. I simply have decided it is no longer worth the effort.
Rant on Susan. Shaming tactics, whining, complaining, impugning our characters. It is the same drivel I have heard for 4 decades. We are on to you and other AW/WW. I have witnessed it for myself and lived through it. I have seen so much impossible and insane conduct from Women excused I am just fed up with it. No more. Since I have walked away from WW/AW they are pursuing me now. It is almost amusing. I am 49 but look 35. Women in their mid thirties are the most desperate. Career Women never married childless. Biological time clock bonging like Big Ben.
I met one a few months back in Las Colinas at an upscale watering hole “Cool River”. Very engaging mid 30s blond and attractive still. She was a friend of a Banker Friend of hers female and recently divorced. I went to meet a buddy and have a few beers. She literally walked in between my and my friend to get me to speak to her. I kept my back to her. She grabbed my hand and spun me around so I would have her undivided attention. She then talked about how she could not find me to commit in Dallas.
I then proceeded to clue her in on the reality of Men’s situations and fears. There is no upside today for Men in Marriage. I then told her about my Children and Grandsons. She was stunned and doubted me until I produced pictures of my Children and Grandsons. I escorted her to her Car as I was raised to respect Women and act like a Gentleman. I told her she should be at home with her husband after having put her babies to bed. That if our culture was not so debased by Feminists, greedy Lawyers and unscrupulous Judges she would be married most likely. She started to cry. The reality is that the chickens have come home to roost.
No amount of shaming behavior, hysteria, whining, crying will change the reality that Marriage is a bad investment for Men. We will not capitulate to a culture that has devalued us. We have freedom to choose and we choose not to marry until some equity and sanity returns to the relationship between the genders. Deal with it .
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Snakey on Jul 30, 2005, 1:47pm
Very well said Khank. Young men need to hear this.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by TyHigs on Jul 30, 2005, 2:04pm
Jul 30, 2005, 1:39pm, khankrumthebulgar wrote:… if our culture was not so debased by Feminists, greedy Lawyers and unscrupulous Judges she would be married most likely. She started to cry. The reality is that the chickens have come home to roost.
No amount of shaming behavior, hysteria, whining, crying will change the reality that Marriage is a bad investment for Men. We will not capitulate to a culture that has devalued us. We have freedom to choose and we choose not to marry until some equity and sanity returns to the relationship between the genders. Deal with it .
I would bet almost anything that she wasnt crying because she had sympathy for your situation or for men in general. She was crying because men have caught on to their feminist mentality, and she wanted to try to gain some sympathy from you – attention whoring at its best. She wanted to appeal to your chivalrous side.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Susan22 on Jul 30, 2005, 4:26pm
Author-
” One comment on the original article. The author said something about kids giving a woman leverage and she was lucky to get child support till age 18.Not sure what you’re reading, but my essay does not even CONTAIN the phrase “child support”.
You are correct I went back and scanned the article again, it wasn’t you that said that. I apologize. I’ve read so much here, it all starts to blend together.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Susan22 on Jul 30, 2005, 4:38pm
Maybe she was crying because she was lonely… Not that anyone here has ever felt that.
Maybe she realized she wanted to be home with husband/mate and kids, but knew her time had past. Must you mock every female.
Have you never felt pain and cried? Have you never wished for your life to be different? you want women to be good, sweet and kind, but this requires the ability to feel and share emotion.
As to “impugning our characters.”- please feel free to count the number of personal attacks, on me and all women here- we are all liars, snakes, skanks, etc. And since you are good with numbers, compare it to the times I have called all men liars, cheats, and ho’s. I would love the statistical breakdown.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Snakey on Jul 30, 2005, 4:47pm
Well, maybe if you don’t like this kind of talk … GO AWAY. There are feminist web sites where they love chatting to the likes of you. This site is for MEN, who have collectively been called many names by feminists, like batterer, rapist, potential rapist, sexual harasser, child molester, deadbeat-dad, and so on. You are seeing a reaction to that, and you insist on standing in the line of fire, wagging your finger saying “naughty naughty”. Go away, Susan. Fine some other hidey-hole on the net where you can plot with your sistas. You alone will not stop the men’s movement. Do not try you, will just look like an idiot. For we haven’t just been called names, we’ve been ACTUALLY persecuted by laws, enforced by the government. Ie, this is not some fictional drama scam to get free stuff … we are actually demonized, victimized, discriminated against in EVERY sphere of life. College. The workplace. The courts. The household family. The education system. Pop culture. EVERYWHERE. You don’t notice. You don’t need to, you’ve never been the target. You’ve been fed myths of how women are worse off, how whatever bad happens to us, we deserve it, because of the rantings of some fat lesbian (who wants to destroy women’s family option. READ THE QUOTES FROM SOME OF THESE WOMEN, WOULD YOU? YOU SUPPORT THAT!)
The fact is, in our experience most western women ARE skanks. Most non-western women are not. You want to shoot the messenger, and failing that, invoke the messenger’s pity with the same old victim card used to screw us out of our rights for over a century now.
Go away Susan, it’s really simple. Go away.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by khankrumthebulgar on Jul 31, 2005, 11:43am
Susan,
Men and Women need each other. We have a Natural Attraction to each other. In the past before Feminism there was no Victimhood as Men and Women were partners. Was their inequalities? Yes but Men accepted our roles as Providers stoically and did not complain about them. We were perhaps not as helpful at the Domestic chores but that too has changed. There was no blame game. There was only two genders working towards a common goal. Marriage benefited Women primarily. As Men developed an investment in their generational Family and were bound to a Woman. Did Men act irresponsibly? Yes many Men liked Variety and had flings or Mistresses or
had affairs.
The culture frowned upon such behavior and Churches or Religion penalized Men who engaged in such behavior. Feminists jettisoned a system that worked for both genders. Imperfect but it worked for most people. Trouble is they had no realistic replacement for it. What will replace the Family? Please tell me. Feminists are clueless as to what will work. As they have no realistic model. “It Takes A Village” idiot Hillary forgets the model she mentions is Ancient Sparta. I don’t care to live the Spartan life. I know my history and know what Ancient Sparta was.
No other model of a communal Family model exists that has worked properly. It simply is contrary to human nature. And sorry the other is Moslem Harems run by Sultans. Hardly what the Lesbians had in mind I think.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by luckilysingle on Jul 31, 2005, 11:47am
Jul 25, 2005, 10:40pm, Susan wrote:
everything in life is a risk, but if i can jump out of airplanes, swim with sharks, and run with the bulls, marriage can’t be too bad?
I have a philosophy about any risky behavior, marriage included, I learned in my military days:
When you get out of the airplane at 10,000 feet, 5,000 feet down, you can’t decide ‘I don’t really want to get out of the airplane’.
It is simply far too easy to get a divorce these days, and the consequences for men are catastrophic.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Susan22 on Jul 31, 2005, 9:21pm
Luckily Single- Good point
i do think rampant divorce is a horrible thing.
But for women needing to have children earlier in life, I think no one should get married/procreate at a young age.
Hey have everyone on birth control, or abstinence until 30.
Dam’ biological clocks and women’s fertility rates.
Did you write how you would change things? I’ll have to go look at that thread.
Khank
You are preaching to the choir. I believe everything you are saying in that last post. I am a feminist in that I believe there should be a Partnership. I believe men have to give as much as they take- and vice versa. We are all on the same team, and the natural way of things is a man and woman working together.
I started off saying women and marriage are good. That’s still my thought, even if i have abandoned my attempt to convince men here to marry. That wasn’t really my intent- maybe in the first post- but I just thought I was battling marriage naysayers. I do understand your concerns about how divorce is weighted against men.
The nasties here haven’t convinced me that a bond between a man and woman, with a partner- an equal, is not the best way. Children within families- the best way for sure.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by khankrumthebulgar on Jul 31, 2005, 9:42pm
Susan I hope your marriage works for you and your Husband. I really do. My Father refers to this life as a “Vale of Tears”. He is 80 and has watched all of his family pass away. He was never expected to live past 30 and has outlived everyone. It is truly a priviledge to speak to him each day. Family connections is one of the things that make life bearable. In the third World there is no safety net so Family replaces the Government as the social safety net. The tragedy of our debased culture is that it trumps Politics. Never have so many single people been alone. This is unnatural. Much of our happiness in life comes from stable family culture.
Feminism is a truly evil movement with sinister agenda. It has turned Women into self debasing Sexual objects. Destroyed marriage and fidelity is a joke. The reality of marriage is that it is an exchange. Men exchange Power for Love and Commitment. Women give up power for Love and in the process soften the aggressive instincts of Men and assist us in reaching our higher purpose of being Fathers and the custodians of Male values. That this transfer of values is not occurring is reflect in the crime explosion in the decades following No-fault Divorce.
Most Men don’t hate Women. We hate how Women treat us and how they have betrayed our instincts to protect and “Husband” them. Husband is a verb as well as a noun. We are not doing either one and it is something cause us great frustration. While single life and its freedoms appeal to some, most Men due to biology want a loving Family.
This is no longer practical as the risks simply outweigh the benefits. There is no longer any equity in such relationships and financial and commercial interests benefit from the financial chaos and carnage of Divorce. They do so with no concern for the long term impact on our culture and its debasement.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Susan22 on Jul 31, 2005, 10:26pm
Khankrum
Thank you.
I’m glad you still have your dad around, and I am sure you have done a good job raising your sons and daughters to be moral and kind people. I miss my dad EVERY day.
Feminism to me, means neither being afraid to stand up for myself, nor expecting anyone to take care of me. Both of my parents- my father especially made sure I had the confidence to achieve this. It does not mean hating men, or expecting them to provide for my every need. I don’t know the full feminist doctrine which you find to be evil- I’ve never visited a feminist web site etc, but I get the overall understanding from this website- I try to filter it out from the anger that often accompanies it.
I think of feminism as promoted womens education, and right to work/ equal pay for equal work. I don’t think of it as being against motherhood, or being a good wife.
My outlook is just a compilation of all my experiences, and I had a loving home, with a stay at home mother, and an ex-Ranger father, so I had both morals and discipline- along with a strong loving family base that wanted me to succeed.
Lack of fathers love, support, and discipline is surely reflected in the crime explosion. Raising well adjusted children is a two person job. One can do it, but something is always missing.
in My Big Fat Greek Wedding- the mom says “the man is the head of the family, but the woman the neck.” I like that theory. I think it is important to let each partner contribute to the decision making. I think men 99.9% of the time will do what is right for their wives- given an open, loving, and communicative relationship. It’s figuring out how to communicate and appreciate each other that is often the problem.
I too see how lonely my single friends are-and I want happiness for them. Just as I do for the men here, bgrove included.
I don’t have a practical fix for the marriage conundrum, I would like to think pre-nups, or LLC’s before marriage, along with explicit talks about expectations before marriage could make it a viable alternative- because I think changing the legal system will take a long time, or serious strife (ie physical invasion of the US,) which would be best avoided.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Riskbreaker on Aug 1, 2005, 3:05am
I’m glad you still have your dad around, and I am sure you have done a good job raising your sons and daughters to be moral and kind people. I miss my dad EVERY day.
*There is a longitudinal study which started back before 1920 which found at all ages women who grew up without a father had significantly more relationship and emotional problems than women who had a father. Such girls miss out on the primary and prototype NON-sexual relationship with a man. All the lies and hysteria about fathers “abusing” daughters to the contrary, most men consider their own daughters the ultimate of “off-limits” and also try to protect them from destructive relationships with other men (“NO! You are not going to marry the bongo player, nor are you going out of the house with your butt-crack showing!!”)
Without this example of how to relate to men non-sexually, and compounded by the fact that she sees her primary role model – dear old “mom” – relating to a series of men purely and only in a sexual manner, these girls simply do not develop ordinary social skills and clobber every male “nail” with their hammer of seductiveness. Their approach to men is fundamentally dishonest and manipulative, and they draw in predatory men who are equally dishonest and manipulative, then turn around and blast ALL men for their poor choices.
As the years go by, the cumulative failures of their dishonest strategies lead them to become bitter and hate-filled toward the entire male sex. No self-respecting man would put up with their gauntlets of emotional barbed-wire in order to get close to them, so they end up locking themselves into prisons of their own creation.
Then, they get jobs as “wimmins’s studdees” professors.
The problem I see is that thousands of years of oral tradition of teaching kids how to live within a family and get along, have been virtually completely destroyed in a couple of generations. As we all well know, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than to get a woman to acknowledge the responsibility of her own actions and choices in the results she gets – so most of these women are going to go to their graves without ever wising up.
Feminism to me, means neither being afraid to stand up for myself, nor expecting anyone to take care of me. Both of my parents- my father especially made sure I had the confidence to achieve this. It does not mean hating men, or expecting them to provide for my every need. I don’t know the full feminist doctrine which you find to be evil- I’ve never visited a feminist web site etc, but I get the overall understanding from this website- I try to filter it out from the anger that often accompanies it.
*From an article:
What a bizarre and childish view to think we need to be taken care of? I thought the whole point of the feminist movement was for us to be independent and strong.
If feminism is ever to catch on in the mainstream we have to remove the socialists from our midst. Employment shoud be a simple matter. Hire me because I am good at what I do and pay me more if I excel. Not, okay stupid, you hired me now YOU have to pay for all the life decisions I’ve made. If I decide to have a baby YOU get stuck not only paying my salary but also the salary and benefits of whoever you have to hire to replace me while I’m gone! What nonsense.
My sister is VP of Human Resources at a Fortune 500 company. She belongs to an organization of female Human Resources managers that is an organization that has quite a feminist bent. My sis — who claims to be an ardent feminist herself — says that over the years she’s seen even her feminist Human Resources peers turn on women trying to find ways to not hire them because of what they perceive as risk from women making false sexual harassment claims (my sis handled 11 sexual harassment claims just last year in her company — a large famous Fortune 500 company — and 7 of the women eventually admitted they made the charges up, one was caught on tape laughing about how much money she was going to make on her harassment charges and how well she had made up the charges, one of the charges was against another woman and that matter still pends, and the remaining two sex harassment charges were found to be unfounded: one claimed that her boss took advantage of her liking to wear low cut tops by glancing at her cleavage and the other claimed that a Motor Trend magazine that she found in an employee bathroom had a scantily clad woman in an ad inside and the ad traumatized her and made her feel the workplace had become hostile).
I’m old and remember the days when women didn’t stand a chance at most jobs. But we fought and proved ourselves. We initially said, “Look, we are strong and smart and just as good as men. We don’t want special treatment we just want to be treated the same and fairly.”
Now, we’ve spent the last 30 years demanding special treatment (“Ewww, don’t mention anything naughty or I’ll sue you.” “Pay me the same as a man who worked during the 10 years I took off to raise my children even though he gained more experience and knowledge.” “Give me time off WITH PAY when I decide to have a child”) and making asses of ourselves.
The point of feminism is to stand on our own, NOT to appear as if we have “tricked” our way in only to demand special treatment that makes us look weak and anything BUT equal.
*From zenpriest-
When it comes to women wearing labels warning men that they are a “BITCH” or “CRUEL”, I look at those like the warning signs that say “Toxic Waste” or “BIOHAZARD.” I take their word for it, and appreciate the warning to avoid them and particularly to avoid letting them get their hooks into me in any way.
Your observation that men are going to end up competing with women in the cruelty department is what led me to tell Kelly what a toxic legacy feminism has left for women of her generation. Nearly half a generation of boys have grown up with cruel bitches of mothers who ran their dads out of their lives, so their dads were not there to protect them from the bitch’s excesses. In addition, many of them have been medicated into zombiehood with the diagnosis of ADHD, and simply were numbed out of the normal growing up process.
I think these most of these boys will end up too broken to ever be fixed, and in another 20 years or so will be a major social factor that will make life for a lot of women generally unsafe.
Once, a long time ago when the world was young, I loved women with all my heart and soul. I grew up among strong competent women who understood that all living things need to be taken care of and will flourish if that happens. The men I grew up with knew that as well. Everyone knew that people must live and work together and find ways to cooperate and just deal with the inevitable differences that arise and keep them in perspective. They knew that people are not perfect, but that most of them try to be as good as they can manage. They took the measure of a person in wholeness, and if there was more good than bad to a person, they accepted that person’s faults as being part of the package which was still valuable, if a bit flawed. After all, nobody really is perfect. We all knew that.
Then, something happened. And that something was called feminism. I remember the early days of the movement when it was called “Women’s Liberation” which was a high sounding and noble cause in a country which is founded on a document which cites liberty as one of 3 inalienable rights that every person has. No one with a sense of fairness and an understanding of civics could be against women being liberated and treated fairly. And, there was also the promise that some of the ways men were being treated unfairly would change along with it.
And, as the old joke goes: if you believe that one, then I have some lakefront property in the Mojave Desert I’d like to talk to you about.
The strangest thing was that most of the situations in which I was being told I had or was exercising “power” seemed absolutely ridiculous to me. When I was a college freshman, one day I was walking across campus toward the student union. I reached the door about a half step ahead of a female student so, as I had been brought up to do, I hastened my last couple of steps and held the door open for her. Instead of the smile and nod that I had been used to in response to such simple acts of social courtesy, she flew into a rage and started screaming at me about how what a male chauvinist PIG I was, that she was perfectly capable of opening that door for herself and didn’t need any g– damned MAN to do it for her, and kicked me in the knee.
“Shock” is a totally inadequate word to describe my response.
I was at a loss to understand any of her reaction. She couldn’t have been any more totally, completely, and absolutely wrong about my motivations and purposes. I instantly assigned her to the categories of “mentally defective”, “hate filled”, and female. Over the next several years, a lot of women joined her company.
A couple of years later, a woman that I was dating described her feminist “consciousness raising” group as consisting of “perfectly satisfying man hating sessions.” Again, I was bewildered. I asked why she found hating me(n) so “perfectly satisfying”. I don’t remember the answer she gave, but she soon proved to me just how true that statement was of her. Like the knee-kicker in response to having a door opened, it seemed that anything and everything I did was proof that I deserved her hatred and rancor. At least 10 years later, she called me out of the blue to apologize. She said she realized that she had just gotten swept up in a group consciousness of hatred and had finally realized what had happened and that I had not deserved the bile she had spewed on me.
I think of feminism as promoted womens education, and right to work/ equal pay for equal work. I don’t think of it as being against motherhood, or being a good wife.
*When this whole eek-wallet-ee nonsense started, a lot of guys signed on because it sounded great to them that they would be able to share in the easier rewards that women were accustomed to. But, we were young and $#%@ and naive and totally underestimated the impact of both biology and thousands of years of social tradition. Life is inherently a challenge because it is through surviving and overcoming challenges that living things remain strong, resilient, and viable. Culture is simply not prepared to make the reward system for males any easier.
It was also a mistake for boomer males to assume that women would ever be held to the same standards as males. We just assumed that it was obvious to everyone how much work was required to gain the rewards we got, and expected women to work as hard as we did if they wanted those same level of rewards.
Women in Canada have been trying for years to get the government to simply pay them a salary for raising their own children. Consistent with universal victimhood, they call raising children “unpaid work.” Obviously, these women have never thought through the implications of what would happen if the government said “Sorry, we don’t have any openings for mothers. We aren’t hiring.”
(I wonder if they also want to get paid on a piece-work basis for wiping their own arses.)
The “gotcha” in forcing people to provide for women’s children through taxation is that as women are forced to achieve wage parity by the simple fact that they cannot find a man to support them directly, childless women will also have to bear an increasing portion of the burden. My portion of the taxes to support these kids is still less than supporting them directly, so I can take a lower-paying, lower-stress job, enjoy life more, and probably live longer.
It doesn’t look as bad for men to me as it seems to look to you.
Feminist author Wendy Dennis came out with a book in the early 1990s called “Hot and Bothered: sex and love in the 90s.” Among many other astute observations in the book was that nothing was more classically typical of the state of male/female relations than the woman who complained bitterly about every aspect of men, then couldn’t figure out why she couldn’t get one of these awful creatures to fall madly in love with her. I had observed the same thing so many times that I had simply concluded that such women were simply not very bright. In stark contrast to the mythology of how socially adept women are, I was baffled that such women were so stupid that they didn’t realize that no living thing will respond to such projections of distaste, contempt, and hatred with anything except return animosity.
My outlook is just a compilation of all my experiences, and I had a loving home, with a stay at home mother, and an ex-Ranger father, so I had both morals and discipline- along with a strong loving family base that wanted me to succeed.
*Ameriskanks confuse real strength with arrogance and meanness of spirit. My Japanese wife is 100 times stronger than any of them, at a fraction of the weight, and she takes care of me, and does so without all of the bitching and moaning. Not that we don`t have our differences, or our problems, but we work through them. She usually quickly apologizes whenever she has an attack of bitchiness. I can never recall my ex ever apologizing for anything, least of all about lying about physical abuse. Ameriskanks don`t know what a strong woman really is.
A strong woman stays with her husband, even when times are rough, and helps him through those times, as he would be expected to do if the shoe were on the other foot. A strong woman is supportive of her husband, especially when he may be experiencing emotional or physical problems, just as he would be expected to be of her in the same case. A strong woman takes over from her husband if he is incapacitated for any reason, just as he would do if she was. I could go on, but I`m sure you all get the point.
A western skank thinks she is strong when she nags and belittles her man, or when she deserts him when times get a little rough. Fuck them, they`re useless.
Lack of fathers love, support, and discipline is surely reflected in the crime explosion. Raising well adjusted children is a two person job. One can do it, but something is always missing.
*The men you are encountering today are ones raised essentially entirely by women. Either mom dumped dad because he wasn’t paying her enough attention, and not making her feel speshul enough, or dad was simply away breaking his back 60-70 or more hours per week trying to keep up with cupcake’s cancerous spending habits. So, after being away all day, he came home to a kid who had been told all day to “wait until your father gets home” so dad could be cast into the role of the heavy – all the kid ever saw of his father was his temperament.
So, the short answer to your question about “what happened to men” is that women tried to raise boys into men without a man’s input, and TOTALLY fucked up the job.
in My Big Fat Greek Wedding- the mom says “the man is the head of the family, but the woman the neck.” I like that theory. I think it is important to let each partner contribute to the decision making. I think men 99.9% of the time will do what is right for their wives- given an open, loving, and communicative relationship. It’s figuring out how to communicate and appreciate each other that is often the problem.
*What I have noticed among women since my college days is that they are so paranoid about being “dominated” that they react with an obsessive-compulsive need to argue with every word which comes out of a man’s mouth. It is totally tiresome and completely destructive because it destroys any real communication or cooperation, and turns dealing with women into an exhausting ordeal.
The result of this is that all the emotional needs that men used to get met through sex – the intimacy and connection – no longer get met in any way. Sex has become very mechanical and impersonal, and sex toys and vibrators have really urged that along. Sex a lot of the time turns out to feel mostly like masturbation with an accomplice, who turns out to be someone you really don’t like all that much.
I too see how lonely my single friends are-and I want happiness for them. Just as I do for the men here, bgrove included.
*QUOTE (mynameiskelly @ May 10 2004, 07:04 PM)
when you go home and shut that door your spouse will be there for you. I am not telling this for the victim spin, just driving home the point that you can rely on your spouse in a different way than friends.
Yeah, right. And I have a great bridge for sale.
While that is the ideal of marriage – the “for richer or poorer, better or worse, sickness or health” thing – fewer things could be farther from today’s reality.
Being one of the original marriage strikers gives me a strange perspective. If I had actually ever met a woman who I had believed would “be there for me”, and who I “could rely on”, as a spouse, I would be either married or divorced today, instead of congenitally single.
Keep in mind the statistics, and the fact that they represent real people. Somewhere around 80% of all divorces are initiated by the woman. I had friends who were shacking up freshman year of college whose parents forced them to get married, who were divorced before we graduated. Since I was in my early 20s, I have been fishing in a pond in which the concentration of divorced women has been growing until by now it is distilled to about 190 proof.
And, having dated dozens of divorced women, I can tell you that the reasons they give for the divorce virtually always boil down to one thing – “he wasn’t paying me enough attention.”
As Wanker just said -
QUOTE
There is nothing more lonely than being with someone you cannot talk to.
Around here there is a joke about why men barbecue – it gives them a chance to retreat to the farthest corner of the yard to get away from the perpetual bitching.
Loneliness? Depends on how much you accept and like yourself versus how much validation you need to get from other people. Being an introvert, people do not energize me, they drain me. And, nothing in the world drains me like listening to a woman’s incessant whining, complaining, and nagging.
I don’t ever get lonely, but I often do feel the urge to resort to a baseball bat to get someone else who is lonely and who is using me to dump her emotional shit onto – to shut the fuck up.
I don’t have a practical fix for the marriage conundrum, I would like to think pre-nups, or LLC’s before marriage, along with explicit talks about expectations before marriage could make it a viable alternative- because I think changing the legal system will take a long time, or serious strife (ie physical invasion of the US,) which would be best avoided.
*Most women today wear ideological blinders – they refuse to see what is right in front of them. They have lost all vestiges of social competence and not only demand the right to dress like prostitutes, but also the right to tell men how they can and can’t react to that. If a woman likes the attention she has solicited, then all is well and good. If she doesn’t, the man is a criminal and in many cases will go to jail and have his life ruined.
The trolls you see here are perfectly characteristic of American womanhood – arrogant, ignorant, and none-too-bright. The saddest part is the lack of women like you who advocate sense over ideology and do not fall for the lure of the easy power which has come to women as a result of their endless bashing of men.
Women of my generation and a bit older have completely betrayed their daughters and granddaughters and their futures by pouring such hatred on men that the essential attraction between the sexes has been all but destroyed. Certainly there are still plenty of men who will seek out women to have sex with them, but more out of contempt than the awe and fondness I remember experiencing toward women as a young man.
Pardoxically, instead of less guilt about sex and better sexual relationships as a result of women’s “liberation”, the criminal sex of the 90s and the oughts make me long for the good old 50s when sex was merely shameful instead of criminal as it is today. On several boards I have seen men cheering over a 14 y/o girl being forced to register as a sex offender. The exploitation, manipulation, contempt, and hostility women have been pouring on men for decades is like emotional DDT – it does not break down and go away but rather keeps building up until it reaches toxic levels.
What life is going to be like for American women over the next few decades is very sad. And, sadder still is the way they have so used up men that few men will have any compassion left for them at all.
From arthur:
You’re exactly right about remembering who the enemy is here.
WE HAVE MET THE ENEMY, AND THE ENEMY IS US.
Let me break this down for you. “HO”meriskanks ain’t changin’ any time soon.
Politicians sure as hell aren’t gonna change any laws regarding marriage/divorce/child support/sexual harassment/looking cross eyed at some skank, etc. Employers aren’t gonna change. Cops/domestic violence procedures aren’t gonna change. When you get right down to it, there is only one group that can change, thus impacting change on the whole Amerifucked landscape.
US MEN.
In order to impact change, we need to starve the beast that is the Ameriskank.
We need to start saying NO to their every whim and wish in a relationship. We need to date more than one at a time, making them compete for US. We need to stop playing the role as capn free therapist and mrfixit. We need to say no to unwanted children and marriages. WE NEED TO STOP GIVING THESE BITCHES SECOND CHANCES.
The problem with the current landscape is that guys are too desperate for women. Being desperate is hardly considered “negotiating from a position of power”. Women have no motivation to change if we keep giving them second chances and/or keep rewarding them. Only when we start withholding the things that they crave/need, are they going to meet us at the negotiating table.
Once again I have to say this. QUIT ARGUING WITH US MEN. You are NOT going to change our minds. What part of this are you struggling with? We wouldn’t look forward to your demise if you weren’t such skanks to begin with.
Instead of debating/arguing with us, try this little exercise. Take the information and the attitudes that you are reading from these types of forums, and start convincing your skank sistas to change their behavior. In all of your myopic glory you women forget one major point. You are only sexually desirable for 2 decades. Your twenties and your thirties. Time flies.
As someone who has used the court system frequently, and successfully, fighting feminism in the courts will NOT work. Judges are typically bound by the laws, and the laws right now are fucked up. So we can just change the laws, right? No. Right now we are outnumbered, pure and simple. Not only are we outnumbered by women, but we must also include “useful idiot males” and the guys who haven’t been fucked over, YET, in our census.
The key word in that whole paragraph is YET. Just because critical mass hasn’t been reached yet doesn’t mean it isn’t gonna happen. I think that it is accepted that Ameriskanks are the most myopic creatures on the face of the earth. And their myopia is what will help us win. Each guy that gets fucked over by women, and/or the court system, becomes another awakened soul. Every day there are more coming. That’s because women and the courts can’t help themselves when it comes to fucking men over.
Eventually, there will be more of us, than them. For those who doubt that “marriage and dating strikes” are having an impact, ask yourself one question. Did you even hear this phrase 10 years ago? Hell, how about 5? Another point to ponder. Mainstream (read: femwashed pc wimp) media are reporting on this trend!! We are gaining momentum.
Expect this trend to continue, based on a couple of factors. First, the internet. They can’t hardly censor us now can they? And I bet that more and more guys are just lurking in forums such as these, and getting the third party validation that is needed to bring them to our side. Secondly, male birth control. When this hits the market and is immediately “number one on the charts and number one in your hearts” as they say, a lot of feminist eyeballs are going to be pried wide fucking open.
Don’t waste your energy with a bunch of butt plug politicians. Keep up with the marriage and dating strike and mix in the male birth control. While I do not advocate the foreign angle, I will admit that one more guy that does this means one less ameriskank gets a husband/victim. When the skanks see themselves being marginalized they will pressure the lawmakers for us. As of right now, the court of law is a waste of time.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Mansheenuez Cowboy on Aug 1, 2005, 3:54am
Amen brother, amen!
That was so well said, I’m in awe. You rock!
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by luckilysingle on Aug 1, 2005, 6:46am
Jul 31, 2005, 9:21pm, Susan22 wrote:Luckily Single- Good point
i do think rampant divorce is a horrible thing.
But for women needing to have children earlier in life, I think no one should get married/procreate at a young age.
Not quite. What most women in their 20s don’t realize or don’t pay much attention to is that this is the time when having children is relatively easy. Once a woman hits the 30-35 range, the problem is getting pregnant in the first place. Also, the medical risks to both her and the child (birth defects, Down syndrome, genetic diseases, etc, increases DRAMATICALLY. The number one growth field in the medical industry is the “fertility clinic”.
Marriages will continue to fail in record numbers until both the guys and the gals come to a realization. Men are not “lords of the house” “wear the pants in the family”, etc. Neither are they only a provider for a woman and her children. A man has hopes, desires, needs etc.
Women are not slaves to men for housework, cooking cleaning etc. Neither are women princesses on thrones to be worshipped, given mansions, big cars, diamond rings, necklaces, personal chefs, etc. They too have hopes, desires, needs, etc.
Making a marriage work takes time and A LOT of WORK on both sides!
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Dejay on Aug 1, 2005, 7:56am
Jul 31, 2005, 9:21pm, Susan22 wrote:
I am a feminist in that I believe there should be a Partnership. I believe men have to give as much as they take- and vice versa. We are all on the same team, and the natural way of things is a man and woman working together.
You can’t have both beliefs, Susan. They are diametrically opposed, mutually exclusive, whatever.
Second, do you know how insulting it is to hear a woman say that, to argue that “femalism” is about equality? Do you understand how insulting that is to indirectly declare that the masculine is not when it is men today who are the ones fighting for equality while women fight for double standards? I can’t even think of a comparison except to a time when we saw femaleism as hysterical, unpredictable, illogical, or in the way we names hurricanes after women because they were erratic, full of wind, unpredictable.
The very word, Feminism, is an insult to men. The definition you perceive of it, that you preach on a men’s board is a slap in the face to all of us, especially those of us who have suffered so much discrimination at the hands of these so called egalitarians.
Ya need to get a clue or two, Susan. In order to communicate to men, especially on a men’s board, you need to completely re-educate yourself to a more egalitarian mind set.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Dejay on Aug 1, 2005, 8:06am
Jul 31, 2005, 9:21pm, Susan22 wrote:
I started off saying women and marriage are good. That’s still my thought, even if i have abandoned my attempt to convince men here to marry. That wasn’t really my intent- maybe in the first post- but I just thought I was battling marriage naysayers.
I do understand your concerns about how divorce is weighted against men.The nasties here haven’t convinced me that a bond between a man and woman, with a partner- an equal, is not the best way. Children within families- the best way for sure.
Yes Susan, but you have not given one solid reason, not one argument as to how marriage benefits men, or how it is worth the risk to men when they stand a 50% chance of ending up exiled from their family, broke, and destine to spend 20 years as an indentured servant. You have just preached the same old tired mantra that most of these men are sick of hearing because they know its little more then bullshit.
It cannot work, especially when women have such uncontrolled power over them, unless women themselves become more aware and suddenly more energetic. Its not going to happen.
Even marriage itself for these young men would be little more then living their lives around the whims and demands of what can only be labeled as selfish, self centered spoiled brats. Even you, who declare yourself to be “enlightened” and in your portrayal of men’s forum den mother do not even have a clue as to your own chauvinism, your own sexism…as I pointed out in your disparaging use to the feminine as a description of egalitarianism.
Marriage WAS a good deal for men, but it is a very bad deal for them. Heck, even with children. As you argue, children with families is the best way, but what good man, with a lot to offer, wants to bring a child into the world when they have a 50% chance of ending up in that very situation that you declare as unsatisfactory.
These men are not “nasties” Susan, they are angry men. Anger is not always a bad thing and you should try to open your mind rather then just condemn those men who have had enough. Are they any different then those first feminist that you hold in such high esteem?
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Rosey hips on Mar 29, 2006, 2:25pm
You go girl! Susan, you’re absolutely correct. These cavemen don’t understand modern women and modern relationships. It’s time to evolve guys.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Independant Black Man on Mar 29, 2006, 2:42pm
Sometimes it is worth it to simply refrain from feeding the trollistas that come here to mock, distort, and pontificate.
I sometimes wish this site had an audio feature so I could vocalize a hearty “SHUUUUT UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUP!”
Good day
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by CP on Mar 29, 2006, 4:10pm
Mar 29, 2006, 2:25pm, Rosey hips wrote:
You go girl! Susan, you’re absolutely correct. These cavemen don’t understand modern women and modern relationships. It’s time to evolve guys.
You mean we don’t understand relationships as defined by “whatever the woman wants”. I can’t argue with you there. Nor can I argue the concept of equality between the sexes, strictly in terms of mutual and equal respect. The problems arise when women and men define equal effort, equal respect, and equal partnership differently. It isn’t enough for men to simply define for themselves what a man ought to be. Women want to take that away too, and re-define them to be more like their girlfriends, or some “adorable” gay man. The penalty for not letting our DNA be changed: Divorce, Cash Out, and a man’s children held hostage from him. All of this protected by the sanctimonious smile of Daddy Government.
Face it: Men work just as hard as you, stress as much as you, feel pain as much as you, have just as much pride as you, love our children just as much as you, and are as smart and capable as you.
You want equality? Then fend for yourself. Prove your worth, just as men have to do every day they are alive.
Nice girls do exist? Can you even imagine how often we have heard that line of bullshit? When a woman says this, she is implicitly saying that she is one of the nice ones. Yet, in embracing that sentiment and the effort expended upon us men that have seen little but the opposite, she has shown that she is in fact flying the same flag as every other woman that has come in here. By extension, she is part of the rule, not the exception.
You are wasting your time here. We embrace this place as the last in which we may unashamedly be proud to be men.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by toadman on Mar 29, 2006, 6:20pm
Quote:I sometimes wish this site had an audio feature so I could vocalize a hearty “SHUUUUT UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUP!”
No audio here Indy but does this help?
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by BobbyL on Mar 29, 2006, 6:42pm
“I just gave personal examples from my own experience why marriage isn’t bad.”
A male listening to a woman for advice on marriage is like a Jew during the 30’s in Germany listening to someone from the SS for advice on housing.(Sure, we have a nice camp for you to live in just outside of town. The train leaves in one hour.)
65% chance and rising that you will cash out on your marriage and your lucky hubby will end up sleeping on his mothers couch (if he’s lucky) and working 3 jobs to give you money to blow at the mall until he dies.
Plus there is a very high probability that you will interfere with his visitation rights with the children.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Cons on Mar 29, 2006, 6:51pm
I have read most of the posts and found them quite insightful. Thanks everyone.
Yet to put it in a nutshell, Susan, you just don’t seem to understand this unparalleled single male’s feeling of BEING GOOD-LOOKING, SUCCESSFUL and ABSOLUTELY FREE!
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by dickthedog on Mar 29, 2006, 7:27pm
Mar 29, 2006, 2:25pm, Rosey hips wrote:
You go girl! Susan, you’re absolutely correct. These cavemen don’t understand modern women and modern relationships. It’s time to evolve guys.
Oh please, please show us the error of our ways. Perhaps then we can become worthy to bow at the altar of the goddess. Please, oh please enlighten us on modern women and modern relationships, as we’re all lonely losers aching for female companionship (we all have small penises too) Our one goal in life is to be pleasing to Wondrous Womanhood, but alas, we cavemen have fallen short once again. How can we even look at ourselves in the mirror? I’m so ashamed.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Little Lion on Mar 29, 2006, 8:46pm
I had lunch today with a statistician/sociologist who had been divorced once. Although at first he seemed to suggest that you can’t live your life expecting the worst (thrown out of your house, unable to see your children and with your assets reduced to 40% of their former value), he later said that he would not get married again, if he were to find himself single; he also agreed that the legal climate is unfavorable to men these days–divorce can be financially devastating, he added. His attitude was that getting married was like “buying a cow” (no invidious comparisons implied): you need to know where the cow came from, its relatives, etc. Meaning that you don’t get a person: you get their family as well. So the long-term effect of so many broken families is to make it harder to find someone to marry, if your intention is to stay married; in that case you would prefer someone who has not divorced, and whose parents haven’t divorced. Statistically, this is harder to find these days–we can blame various social and political movements, but whether you assign blame, the numbers are what they are, and they aren’t encouraging. The marriage strike is a statistical phenomenon that has a life of its own; it’s not an ideological position that a few crusty, cigar-smoking whiskey-soaked misogynists invented to assuage their feelings of sour grapes. This has to do with the survival instinct. Perhaps Warren Farrell is right: the anti-male legal climate is designed to assist weeding out the “least desirable” males; some find themselves impoverished, and others select themselves out, having decided not to get involved with what they perceive as today’s emotionally draining, financially crushing post-feminist female. Of course, one would expect 14th amendment protection in that case…
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by pathus21 on Mar 29, 2006, 9:25pm
First off, I didn’t bother to read through all 135 replies.
I am a 21 year old male college student in the big 10. Most women my age are worthless whores. Not only that, probably about half the women here are already at least 15 lbs overweight which disgusts me. Imagine how fat they will be in a few years, much less after they get married. None of them seem to have any interest in becoming good wives. I am utterly disgusted with the narcissistic princesses who think they are the shit.
I see zero benefit to getting married for all of the reasons that have probably been stated here countless times. I will be starting a business immediately upon graduation and I will devote most of my time to hopefully building myself a small empire.
As for women, they only thing they offer me at this point is easy sex. I used to just bring them back from the bars for one night stands, but that is very dangerous, and very stupid. I do think there are some women out there and If I ever find a woman who would make a suitable wife at around age 30 I might marry her. I realize that this would be almost impossible to accomplish and with my standards, I will most likely never find the right woman.
I am just very disappointed with the quality of women in my generation. I don’t know what I am going to do but probably at least half my friends agree with me on the issue. I wish women were like my grandmas… strong, feminine, great mothers, great wives, intelligent, and most of all unspoiled by feminism.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by grandcurmudgeon on Mar 29, 2006, 9:26pm
“The marriage strike is a statistical phenomenon that has a life of its own; it’s not an ideological position that a few crusty, cigar-smoking whiskey-soaked misogynists invented to assuage their feelings of sour grapes. This has to do with the survival instinct. Perhaps Warren Farrell is right: the anti-male legal climate is designed to assist weeding out the “least desirable” males; some find themselves impoverished, and others select themselves out, having decided not to get involved with what they perceive as today’s emotionally draining, financially crushing post-feminist female.”
While the phrase “marriage strike” makes for a compelling sound bite and convenient label for a complex social phenomenon, it is very much a misnomer. Even if all the anti-male laws were repealed tomorrow, men would not spontaneously, en masse, go back to “work.” By itself, the choice of the term strike is interesting for its connotations – people “go on strike” against unpleasant jobs and working conditions, not against any activity which is inherently enjoyable or pleasurable.
In one of these archaeological threads, someone made the comment that men are adapting to the “new woman”, it is just that their adaptation was not the one these women wanted or expected. As you said, LL, “self-preservation.” Even single-celled organisms will move away from environments which are toxic to them, and today’s “emotionally draining, financially crushing post-feminist female” is about as toxic as toxic gets. If they can’t bitch you to death, they will shoot you as the wife of that minister in Tennessee has just done.
And, women, manginas, and old-school chivalrists will stampede to support her.
What we have going on today is analogous to when the Titanic went down. We still have the “officers” threatening men with pistols, or sometimes going beyond threatening to actually shoot them, to keep them out of the lifeboats “in the best interests of the children”, and men are doing the equivalent of forgetting about the lifeboats and beginning to tear up the decking planks and smash furniture and lash together makeshift rafts so that they can survive.
A fascinating part of the Titanic story which seldom gets told, is that once all these “womenandchildrenfirst” returned to dry land, no one wanted to support them. Having lost their providers and protectors, many of the “lucky” survivors ended up leading lives of poverty.
Powerful forces have been working very determinedly for more than 4 decades to alienate men and women from each other, and they have been helped along by some of the worst inherent characteristics of women.
It has taken a long time and a lot of work to accomplish such a major change in social values for so many people, but it has been done. Many boys today say they don’t see fathers as being necessary in the raising of children, which means they don’t see themselves as needing to fulfill the father role. They will most certainly not fight as hard to be part of their children’s lives as the men who were raised under the old social contract have fought.
The “marriage strike” really is simply a statistical phenomenon which indicates, like a canary in a coal mine, an unbelievably profound change in social values regarding marriage. The “Ritalin boys” of the past 15 years will have profound effects on the culture for at least the next 6 decades.
Most of the men who were born before about 1975-1980 remember a time when women weren’t emotionally draining, financially crushing, and relentlessly hostile. Men born after that have never lived in such a time and have as little understanding of the reality of it as they do of what it must have been like to harness up a team of horses and drive a wagon into town.
Boys who grow up around girls wearing T-shirts that say “boys are stupid, throw rocks at them” are not going to have any basis on which to build a belief that females are anything other than enemies and will have a deep and profound hatred for them.
The femnasties have bequeathed to the women of the future a world filled with either neutered little lapdogs, or men who hate them as much as the femborg have been claiming that men hate women. When they see the reality of it, they will realize how far off base they were.
Far from “weeding out unsuitable mates”, the legal climate is driving away the most suitable ones – the ones with enough intelligence to think for themselves and not succumb to the brainwashing.
——————————————————————————–
Hey Susan
Post by myachingback on Mar 29, 2006, 10:50pm
I don’t know if the bitterness does anyone any good, either, but I feel it, too.
I’m one of the older guys here — 55 — and am 19 years into my third marriage. I offered my wife this deal: you can live in a nice suburb with good public schools and stay home with the kids. Your downside is that it won’t be private schools, and it will be a less toney suburb than your sister-in-law lives in, and it will be further from your Mom. In other words, if ya don’t wanna go out to work, Nice Fellow that I am, I’ll support you and our kids BUT YOU HAVE TO LIVE ON WHAT I CAN MAKE IN A 60 HOUR WORK WEEK. I kind of thought a little housework, maybe one family dinner a week, and occasional sex came with that deal, but I was, of course, wrong. My wife has a master’s degree, so cooking is very much beneath her (but she doesn’t feel she has a responsibility to make part of the money, either — working for money is supposed to be at her option).
If you want to live in fancier suburb “B,” I told her, cool — and if we enroll our girls in private schools, OK, but that means you’re swearing on the grave of your ancestors to take on responsibility for making 30%, or at least 20%, of the overall income. (At the time, she was making $48K with free health and dental insurance for the entire family for working 3 days a week, half of which could be done from home).
So what she did was run up about $70K in credit card debt, take to drinking to show me how much she hated her remunerative part-time job (college instructor) and then fell into a deep funk because she couldn’t get pregnant whereupon I shelled out for fertility treatments and did all of the paperwork and foreign travel to adopt another child . . .
. . . whereupon, about 2 years afterward, she simply stopped working, refused to look for another job, and basically said fuck you, husband, where ya gonna go?
We haven’t had sex in 2-1/2 years, the house is messy, the kids tended adequately but not much better than that and she’s asleep or dozing before the TV most nights when I get home at 8 or later. I make, actually, a lot of money but we’re older parents, there isn’t much family money, and I’m expected to pay for college, I guess for girls who will marry mostly for money and stop working within a few years of having a baby.
Why, exactly, do people who are not rich spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to send daughters to college, if they aspire only to marry a guy who will pay for their lives?
If I could get custody of my kids the little freeloader would be out the door tomorrow. Would you marry, Susan, into the deal that I’m supposed to put up with? Hell, no. But all of us men who get shafted this way are supposed to chalk it up, write checks, and reckon that they were just a bit unlucky fi indeed they didn’t deserve to get screwed over because they weren’t perfect, or simply because, as men, per feminist dogma we deserve death or worse.
If I had a son, I’d tell him to avoid marriage or getting anyone knocked up, to work, save, and pursue a career and hobbies and friends, and if he just had to have kids to marry only a young, never-married foreign woman from a good family and to live anywhere where English is not the first language.
As a group, Susan, American women have nagged, complained, cheated, double-dealt, aborted, STDed, whined, and over-reached to the point that, rare exceptions aside, you don’t deserve to be trusted. The game is that you fuck yourselves silly from 15 or 16 to age 27 or 30 and then, when you’re jaded and your looks are already starting to go, you remember your “clock” and latch on the whatever guy will marry you, and then resent the bejesus out of him because he’s not the richest, best looking guy you ever shagged, and then you drop a kid or two, stop working, gain weight, and stop screwing your husband. And we are supposed to think of this as “love.”
Nearly all of you feel it’s your birthright to have equal educational and career opportunities, but nevertheless to marry up — if you’re good-looking, to marry way up. What you don’t realize is that while by no means all men are shitheels, men who make $200K a year who are single in their late 30s don’t need to marry chain-smoking, embittered 35-year-olds who have had four abortions and seventy bedmates. They can get cute Latinas or Vietnamese wives who are 22 and, if not virgins, at least not burned-out.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Dickthedog on Mar 30, 2006, 6:55pm
Mar 29, 2006, 10:50pm, myachingback wrote:
If I had a son, I’d tell him to avoid marriage or getting anyone knocked up, to work, save, and pursue a career and hobbies and friends, and if he just had to have kids to marry only a young, never-married foreign woman from a good family and to live anywhere where English is not the first language.
I have a son, 15 yrs. old. I’ve told him don’t get married, don’t have kids. If you ever meet a woman that reminds you of your mother, run like hell. Turns out I didn’t have to tell him anything. The boys that are teens now have first hand experience with the devestation caused by selfish, stupid women. They come from broken families or they are friends with someone from a broken family.
Boys have a bond with their fathers that even the most vindictive cunt can’t touch. As long as the father is involved in the boys life, the boy will turn to dad before mom. These boys see how shabbily their fathers have been treated. They observe the duplicitous nature of their mothers.
If women think they have a hard sell now, wait ten years. They’ll be beside themselves with panic.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by patr3 on Mar 30, 2006, 7:19pm
I think bitterness is okay for a limited period of time. We are angry about what is going on these days. We have every right.
We don’t want to be caught up in it though. Afterwards is time for actions.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Guest on Mar 30, 2006, 7:30pm
Mar 29, 2006, 9:25pm, pathus21 wrote:First off, I didn’t bother to read through all 135 replies.
I am a 21 year old male college student in the big 10. Most women my age are worthless whores. Not only that, probably about half the women here are already at least 15 lbs overweight which disgusts me. Imagine how fat they will be in a few years, much less after they get married. None of them seem to have any interest in becoming good wives. I am utterly disgusted with the narcissitic princesses who think they are the shit.
I see zero benefit to getting married for all of the reasons that have probably been stated here countless times. I will be starting a business immediately upon graduation and I will devote most of my time to hopefully building myself a small empire.As for women, they only thing they offer me at this point is easy sex. I used to just bring them back from the bars for one night stands, but that is very dangerous, and very stupid. I do think there are some women out there and If I ever find a woman who would make a suitable wife at around age 30 I might marry her. I realize that this would be almost impossible to accomplish and with my standards, I will most likely never find the right woman.
I am just very disappointed with the quality of women in my generation. I don’t know what I am going to do but probably at least half my friends agree with me on the issue. I wish women were like my grandmas… strong, feminine, great mothers, great wives, intelligent, and most of all unspoiled by feminism.
Wow. Yeah, you sound like a real catch, cupcake.
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by Citadel on Mar 31, 2006, 12:01am
Quote:
I am just very disappointed with the quality of women in my generation. I don’t know what I am going to do but probably at least half my friends agree with me on the issue. I wish women were like my grandmas… strong, feminine, great mothers, great wives, intelligent, and most of all unspoiled by feminism.
I hear you feller, couldn’t agree more!
AW’s = Misery most of the time
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by BL on Mar 31, 2006, 12:13am
Mar 30, 2006, 7:19pm, patr3 wrote:I think bitterness is okay
We don’t want to be caught up in it though. Afterwards is time for actions.
Exactly. And the most constructive action I have taken is to tell women to
GET LOST!
——————————————————————————–
Re: I don’t believe this bitterness does anyone go
Post by ted on Mar 31, 2006, 12:25am
Mar 29, 2006, 9:25pm, pathus21 wrote:
I am a 21 year old male college student in the big 10. Most women my age are worthless whores. Not only that, probably about half the women here are already at least 15 lbs overweight which disgusts me. Imagine how fat they will be in a few years, much less after they get married. None of them seem to have any interest in becoming good wives. I am utterly disgusted with the narcissitic princesses who think they are the shit.
I see zero benefit to getting married for all of the reasons that have probably been stated here countless times. I will be starting a business immediately upon graduation and I will devote most of my time to hopefully building myself a small empire.<snip>
I am just very disappointed with the quality of women in my generation. I don’t know what I am going to do but probably at least half my friends agree with me on the issue. I wish women were like my grandmas… strong, feminine, great mothers, great wives, intelligent, and most of all unspoiled by feminism.
My friend, you will get the last laugh. Because the American women of your generation are royally fucked. Some day, when it’s too late for them, they will know that.
Just know that American women as a whole are garbage, without much going for them. They are otherwise worthless, inferior creatures – easily replaceable, disposable – whose only ace card is their used-up dirty hole between their legs.
The real key is to save your money, go overseas, and find a non-western, non-feminist-minded, foreign woman. Latin America, E.Europe, Asia. It should be obvious to any man by now that American women have become the kiss of death.
There is nothing in it for an American man – for ANY man – to associate with an American Woman. They are wretched, stupid, unlovable whores who bring no joy to a man. Only misery.
——————————————————————————–
